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Post by craigtx on Apr 24, 2014 12:54:25 GMT -5
I recently acquired a Mle 51 canteen. Really goosd condition, however the cork should really be replaced. It looks like there's no way to take apart the cork assembly. Is there a good/easy way of replacing the cork?
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Post by lew on Apr 25, 2014 7:56:25 GMT -5
I just got mine. I'll check when I get home, but I seem to remember it looking like the plate on the bottom of the cork screws on. IF that's the case, buy the right sized cork, drill a hole down the center, and replace. If not, cut off the plate and cork, leaving the center support. Drill the cork and epoxy it to the cap.
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Post by craigtx on Apr 26, 2014 8:25:34 GMT -5
Hopefully it's a screw model. I'd hate to have to cut and epoxy.
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Post by lew on Apr 28, 2014 7:18:07 GMT -5
A couple minutes at most with a grinder, rip off the old cork, drill the new one, and install. Ten minutes work, maybe. I only mention the screw holding the cork on because my Civil War-era canteens have that, so it's not unreasonable that a canteen made almost a century later has the same securing method.
After handling my bidon Mle. 51, I can see why the gourde Mle. 52 came out only a year later, although only the former saw use in Indochine. It's kind of a crap design, which is all the more apparent when compared to the excellent Mle. 52 or even the US M1910.
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Post by Étienne on Mar 29, 2015 18:53:11 GMT -5
On page 45 (and on the cover) of the La Legion Etrange en Indochine 1946-1956 book, there is a 1/2e REI soldier crossing a stream, in November 1952, who looks like he has a Mle 52 canteen strapped to the back of his rucksack. I guess it could be a P44 Brit canteen, but it's not quite rounded enough looking to me. What say you?
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Post by lew on Mar 30, 2015 6:25:55 GMT -5
I had the same thought. I reasoned that it's a P44 canteen, which is what the Mle. 52 is based on. I think it's the camera angle. With that canteen having been introduced into service that year, I would find it highly unlikely that troops in Indo would be the first to get it, especially when they already had a workable item on hand. Troops in North Africa and Europe were typically first on the list for nonessential items, like the Mle. 52 boots. Weapons and camouflage were a different matter. [French troops in Germany only phased out the M1 Garand in 1965!]
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Post by Étienne on Mar 30, 2015 9:29:13 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess if it would have popped up anywhere in Indochina, it might have been dropped into DBP with all the other new items that got dropped...so perhaps some Viet Minh units obtained them when they recovered the bundles?  (In a way it's somewhat like the "elusive" RAPCO equipment belt buckle, but I've now seen two photos of it being used in Indochina in 1954.) Speaking of P44 canteens, WPG has them for sale (once again, that is) for $30: onlinemilitaria.net/products/1946-UK-P44-Water-Bottle-Original I'm not sure if they're actually WWII ones, as I know they were made into the 1960s even. Heck, they could even be Dutch or Danish I suppose? GPC has the P44-like Danish ones for $6, but they have plastic caps: www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/1048600.htmI have a P44 cover, but for some reason my "ultimate canteen set up" has always been a P44 canteen in a Mle 51 cover. And I have neither  |
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Post by lew on Mar 30, 2015 11:44:02 GMT -5
Those Rapco buckles on the 50/53 belt were a lot more common in Indo than we've been led to believe. It seems the BPVN's received the full 1953 equipment package. I don't know about 5e BPVN at DBP, but those fighting in Laos at the end of 1953 had Mle. 47/53 TAP uniforms and 50/53 belts.
I'm all set with the Mle. 51 canteen I have inbound, but thanks for the heads-up.
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Post by Étienne on Mar 30, 2015 18:23:23 GMT -5
I have seen some of the Laos photos of some BPVN troops with all the latest gear...so, hmmmm...your mention of it now makes me wonder if I need to look closer at the 5BPVN photos of them at DBP, especially since they jumped in late in the game, to see what gear they've got.
The one photo I really remember of a RAPCO buckle is the 1BEP guy (in late 1953 or early 1954, I think near DBP, maybe on patrol) wearing a lizard camo suit (can't remember what pattern) and crossing a foot bridge. The "odd" thing is is that he's wearing Mle 1917 boots and leggings, not jump boots or pataugas.
Well, I guess that's what's always attracted me to this period: The "free for all" (somewhat) of uniforms and gear.
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Post by lew on Mar 31, 2015 7:49:50 GMT -5
I realize that's not always visible, but the quickest way to tell a 47/52 veste from a 47/53 is this: The 47/52 has button tabs on either side to cinch the bottom of the jacket and the 47/53 has a tab with a buckle.
I would not feel out of place using a Rapco-buckled Mle. 50/53 belt for an impression in the last year and a half of the war. I just would not take it as representative and would use it sparingly, but, as we know, they were certainly there in significant quantity. Of course, the Mle. 50 belt could be frequently encountered up until 1962. When I was watching a video on ECPAD about the early operations in Algeria, about half of the troops still had Mle. 51 canteens.
You are correct. The great variance in equipment- certainly moreso for Indochine- makes collecting for both conflicts that much more interesting.
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Post by Étienne on Apr 1, 2015 9:58:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. I've read up on some of the differences, but since I've only seen a few original items, and not together in one place to compare them, I haven't been able to clearly note the differences. There's a guy on another militaria site or two named "Valery" that knows a lot about Indochina stuff. He had this to say about the 47/52's: "Not all the units who fought in DBP worn 47/52 sets. Here is a quick list of those who used it: 1st and 2nd BEP, GM/35e RALP (mobile group (Bn level) of the 35th Airborne light artillery), 5e BPVN (Vietnamese airborne Bn) and GAP (airborne Group). II/1e RCP, 6th BPC and 8th BPC did not wear the new sets even if it’s near sure that the men received like the other airborne units. The 47/52 sets were adopted on the 5th February 1953 and paratroopers jumped on DBP on the 20th November: less than 10 months to make the uniforms and ship to Indochina, here is a real logistic challenge won by French quartermaster (when they want!)" If he's not already on this forum, I'd like to message him about it so he can give his two cents on occasion. I think he's located in France and has a good FIW collection from what I've read (although I might be confusing a few of the other forum posters with him).
Are you aware of anyone reproducing or "faking" a Mle 50 belt? I thought about it...I was going to take a French RAPCO belt, remove the buckle, and replace it with either a Brit one or an Israeli one. Or, I thought about taking an Israeli belt and just removing the two buckles and tabs on the rear. I haven't done it, and since I have several beater M-1936 US belts, I don't plan on doing it any time soon. But, if one were to be doing a series of unit photographs, it would be cool to have a few guys wearing the Mle 50's.
The Mle 50 canteen kind of cracks me up; it's like the French military higher ups are still trying to hold onto some "French military equipment traditions" or something. That canteen is a good example (tinned, with a cork stopper and somewhat oddly shaped), another is the Mle 45 "Joan of Arc" helmet (http://www.world-war-helmets.com/fiche.php?q=Casque-Francais-Mle-45); I think the paras might have had something to do with the French military adopting the US M1 helmet system, and/or the US giving so much military aid to the French (i.e. the M1 was free). It's like the French military bureaucracy just couldn't handle the fact that they were almost a non-entity in the military world anymore, so they tried to hang onto strictly French-styled equipment...but that had become outdated as WWII ended (or, even during WWII). It took Indochina and Algeria to get them to modernize their uniforms and equipment (of course, mostly based on US M-1910 gear that had been improved up through WWII). But heck, most if not all militaries go through that on occasion, even the US military since 2001. Anyway, my waaaaaay loooooong rand round about point is (whew...really got lost there for awhile) that I've never seen a Mle 50 canteen that wasn't rusty and nasty and I wouldn't drink out of it for anything. But of course I'm sure there are nice ones in collections not being used on a daily basis.
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Post by lew on Apr 2, 2015 7:27:49 GMT -5
I did not previously know the date of introduction. Thanks! I believe there is a mock-up in Paras Indochine of IIe/1e RCP in a 47/52 uniform during DBP. I'll have to double check. I know that that unit dropped the Windproof uniform- which was their standard for years- by the time they got to Algeria. 3e RPC and 13e RDP (the latter of which did not see service in Indo) used the Windproof sets until about 1958 and the end of the war, respectively.
I need some artillery bits- M1 105mm howitzer, M20 75mm recoilless rifle (fusil sans recul or SR) for a 35e RALP impression (20e GAP and I/35e RAP en Algérie). Of course, I also need vehicles. Life is unfair.
Not aware of anyone doing anything with Mle. 50. belts. They pop up on ebay.fr from time to time. I got mine out of South Africa via Canada. I think the belt is pretty distinctive and easily spotted by a discerning eye. I'd rather keep on with the M1936 belt than go with something not correct.
Judging by the year of adoption of its successor- the Mle. 52- the Mle. 51 canteen was anachronistic and outdated well before it was introduced. They already had the British P44 and US M1910 canteens in use, so why oh why did they bother with the Mle. 51? France's military supply apparatus was well and bureaucratized by then. The problem was this: It was only loosely centrally-controlled. Lots of one hand not knowing what the other is doing. I think that's the reason for the Mle. 45 helmet. I think someone designed it before WW2, was able to push it through, it was found to be mostly unsuitable, and then primarily relegated to Armée de l'Air use.
I do not think it is fair to say that France was militarily a non-entity. Their industrial core was ravage by WW2, but up and running by the mid-50's. Not a bad recovery time. They had more men under arms than any other nation at the time and supplying them was a major task. That France was able to produce both through depot-level workshops and centrally-controlled factories in France updated versions of other countries' gear and design their own equipment was no small feat. Also keep in mind the revolution in military hardware, tactics, and strategy that followed WW2. The world was changing fast, and equipment tried to keep up. Helmets are a good example: loads of free M1 helmets, tons of different suspension methods tried for airborne use- none of which were entirely satisfactory- and finally their own versions- Mles. 51 and 56- which were evolutionary improvements but still adhering to the parent design.
You are certainly correct- war is usually the only way to get a military to modernize. We're seeing the inverse of that with US military as Iraq is long over and Afghanistan a slowly fading memory. Many want to forget the lessons and revert to their idea of a peacetime garrison military. There will be more tough lessons ahead.
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Post by Étienne on Apr 5, 2015 8:34:43 GMT -5
Here's the (cropped) image of the 1/2REI soldier with the "questionable canteen" on his pack. Dang it looks like a Mle 52 canteen, but the photo is from November 1952, so...  Looking at the extreme close up, however, perhaps it is a Brit P44 but in a canteen cup so the bottom looks squarer. The one thing that gets me about this photo is that to the untrained eye this could be some US Army guy in 1968 Vietnam, as they look so similar. Attachments:
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Post by craigtx on Apr 5, 2015 10:09:49 GMT -5
Dunno... Tough to make a good ID on the cap size with the strapping so close to it. Sure it's not a late war US canteen?
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Post by Étienne on Apr 5, 2015 14:59:32 GMT -5
Could be...heck, for all I know it could be a shadow or could have some fabric wrapped around it or something to make the cap look so big!
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Post by lew on Apr 5, 2015 19:05:35 GMT -5
Absolutely not a Mle. 52. The profile of the top below the cap is wrong. The 52 has a bit of a neck. My money's on the P44.
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Post by craigtx on Apr 6, 2015 9:13:29 GMT -5
In lookin' at the way it's attached to the ruck, I'm inclined to say it's a U.S. model. The way the strap seems to be below a lip. IIRC some models had that ridge about where the top of the canteen cup rested. I'm thinkin' that's what the strap's under.
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Post by lew on Apr 6, 2015 10:58:36 GMT -5
I think you're right. The P44 cup does not have a prominent rim. Of course, this assumes that the cup and canteen are of the same make.
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Post by craigtx on Apr 7, 2015 9:08:48 GMT -5
Yup, and that can be a big assumption considering the variety of equipment involved...
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Post by lew on Apr 7, 2015 15:59:42 GMT -5
Yessir. I'm thinkin' it's the P44 canteen with an M1910 cup. The cap on the canteen looks to big to be an M1910.
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Post by craigtx on Apr 8, 2015 10:38:36 GMT -5
Lookin' at the pic again, and lookin' at some pics of the P44, I'm thinkin' that you're right it is a P44, but without a cup of any sort. The M1910 cup has that "L" shaped handle which folds under, which is not in evident in the pic. The P44 cup has the folded wire handles which I don't think is there 'cause the canteen sits too flat to the ruck.
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Post by lew on Apr 8, 2015 18:25:18 GMT -5
I think yer right. It appears the line we're seeing above the strap isn't a rim to a cup, but the seam in the canteen. That would make sense since the Legionnaire almost certainly has a canteen cup in his belt-mounted pouch, which he is almost certainly carrying. Good eyes.
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Post by craigtx on Apr 9, 2015 15:53:03 GMT -5
Nice to know they can still work...  |
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Post by Étienne on Apr 9, 2015 16:59:11 GMT -5
So...it's a late WWII US M-1910 with the horizontal seam? I'm tempted to take a photo of my P44 from that angle and see what can be seen  |
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Post by lew on Apr 10, 2015 11:33:46 GMT -5
We have it at least narrowed to those two models. Give yer experiment a shot and see what happens. Whatever canteen it is, it's nothing earth-shattering and is something known to have been in-use.
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Post by Étienne on Apr 10, 2015 16:53:09 GMT -5
Ha, that is true, especially now that a Mle 52 has been ruled out. But us minutiae nerds wanna know!
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Post by lew on Apr 10, 2015 18:37:53 GMT -5
We are obsessive. That, we cannot deny.
It would be great if it was a Mle. 52 since I have close to a dozen of those. Alas, we shall have to suffer... Woe is us'n's.
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Post by craigtx on Apr 11, 2015 14:02:13 GMT -5
Yeah... Sucks to be us...
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Post by Étienne on Apr 12, 2015 16:48:04 GMT -5
Yeah...I sometimes feel like the guy in the SNL skit about a Star Trek convention and he asks William Shatner what the combination to a box or safe was in some episode...
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Post by craigtx on Apr 13, 2015 11:58:00 GMT -5
Yup... Trackin' down minutia can be really frustratin' and lead to obsessive/compulsive behavior. But that leads to some awesome impressions...
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