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Post by Étienne on Jul 6, 2014 11:35:36 GMT -5
Palladium Pampa High Canvas Boot, in Otan/Army Green [modern-production] Ordering: I found that Amazon.com had the best price for these boots in my size (at $48.88 plus tax with free shipping), with Zappos.com coming in a tight second (at $55). I found the sizing "chart" as listed is spot-on for me (I have a somewhat wide foot, and wear a U.S. 10.5, which according to Palladium's size chart is a size 44). Shipping took about a week (via a combination of FedEx and USPS). I chose the color "Otan/Army Green" as I felt it most closely resembles the original color the boots were produced in in the 1950s and 1960s. By the way, in case you were wondering, Palladium boots are no longer made in France, but like most footwear these days are made in China. By the way, do not for the love of God accidentally buy the "Men's Baggy Canvas Boot"! Comfort: These aren't the first pair of Palladiums I've owned, as I really do like the fit and comfort of them. I haven't worn any period original pataugas, but I have worn the Israeli copies (with the double-buckle anklets removed), a 1980s Banana Republic pair, a 1970s/1980s pair of "vintage" Palladiums, and a Chinese-made NVA-type pair I bought in Asia. These Palladiums are comporable to the Banana Republic ones (which I recall might have been true Palladiums) but are definitely better fitting and more "heavy duty" than the Israeli ones (and very different from the NVA ones, so they're hard to compare). One could easily remove the thin (but rather decent) insole and put in a better one (and/or perhaps more "authentic" one if so desired), although a larger size boot might be needed to make room for a thick insole. Looks ("authenticity"): Out of the box, the color is slightly off, with the green being a bit "minty" and the sole color being a bit off (almost a dark gray, "light black," or very dark green...it's hard to tell). The laces aren't nylon and their color is good; the lacing eyelets are bronze or brass. I would also say the soles of the Palladiums aren't as heavy duty as the originals, but the tread pattern is almost exactly the same as the originals/earlier versions of Palladiums (see attached photo at bottom of posting). Potential modifications: One could potentially dye the uppers or treat them with something like boiled linseed oil (which does darken up the color and makes them water repellent, but it also makes the canvas uppers breathe less and hence it traps heat). Also, Palladium is obviously very proud of their brand name, and they place their logo on four locations on the exterior of each boot. One is on the ankle patch (which is no big deal, as it was done originally, albeit in a different style, especially on private-purchase boots); one is on the bottom of the sole (it likely could be sanded off if desired); one is on a tag stitched into the outside seam side of each upper, just below the laces (it's easily removable); and one is on each tongue (also easily removable). There is also an interior printed tag on the side of the boot, with the size, a barcode, manufacturer's code or parts number, and "MADE IN CHINA" (this tag could likely be removed utilizing some sandpaper and elbow grease, but would take some work; one could also just paint over it). Conclusion: As these boots are getting worn in and dirty and wet and left in the sun on occasion (all of which I'm doing, as I'm using them as a summer-weight farm-work boot), they are looking even closer to the original pataugas used by the military in French Indochina. In my opinion, these Palladiums are a good "reproduction" of an Indochina War-era patauga/bush boot, and would make a suitable boot for the recreation of a late-war French Indochina soldier. Amazon listing: www.amazon.com/Palladium-Mens-Pampa-Canvas-Green/dp/B0043244BC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1404664272&sr=8-2&keywords=palladium+otan
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Post by lew on Jul 28, 2014 7:59:35 GMT -5
I've had my Palladium's for over three years and have put many miles on them all across the country both on pavement an off and am constantly amazed by how such a light shoe can hold up so well. Some fraying appeared where the heel cap meets the back of the shoe- right where the wearer's Achilles tendon would be- and on the instep near where the bottom-most eyelet is positioned, both within a couple months, but the wear has failed to spread since then. Considering that troops in Algeria only got six months out of leather boots and two out of Pataugas (of any brand), and much of the terrain I've covered has been in the Southwest (which is an excellent analog to Algeria) I am most satisfied with the durability.
Fun fact: While the current Palladium production has shifted to China, China supplied 30-40,000 copies to the ALN in Morocco and Tunisia in the late '50's, not to mention those they supplied to North Vietnam, so they've been making these for almost as long as the original company's been around.
I have about ten thousand pictures on my compute mostly pertaining to Algeria. Many of them are in color and those featuring Palladium-brand Patuagas show the modern product to be spot-on in color, at least when newly issued. They will fade out some, especially if they are washed, but will still retain their green coloration.
Privately-purchased Pataugas in the mustard/sand color were allowed in conjunction with the issued varieties, but I have not seen more than a couple color photographs of men wearing them. Why would they when they could get the same thing issued for free? More money for wine, good smokes, and chicks.
Externally, little has changed. A couple minor details- markings on the sole and tongue (I may have seen the tongue tag in period photos.), as noted by Étienne, and the insole and inside tag are different. Note that Palladium Pataugas have always had the company name on the ankle disc, while those on Wissarts and Vernons were smooth.
I wear a size 10D (43) shoe/boot and ordered that size. Fits like it was made for my feet. A note on their sizing chart: Euro size 44 is closer to 11/11.5.
My conclusion is similar to Étienne's: A very good modern-production shoe that will work just fine for reenactors. The other option is buying a pair of originals (if you can find them) which are typically only available in size super small or clown shoes.
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Post by craigtx on Jul 29, 2014 7:36:57 GMT -5
I'll echo the praise for the Palladiums! I have a pair (Sz 11) and they fit perfectly. I love the ankle support and you can't beat the the weight, or lack thereof.
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Post by lew on Jul 30, 2014 6:32:25 GMT -5
And for around $50, reasonably priced, too.
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Post by Étienne on Sept 29, 2014 12:58:48 GMT -5
I can see how pataugas wouldn't last long in a wet environment, much less someplace like the water-filled trenches of Dien Bien Phu. Mine pretty much stay constantly wet from work and they stink pretty bad (and I mean REALLY bad); several times, I've had to undo the laces, pull out the insoles, get some air into them, and not wear them for a week to finally get them to dry out and get the smell to mellow. I guess they were likely disposable at the time, and new ones were issued on a regular basis, much like socks. I know U.S. soldiers also dealt with that in Vietnam with the U.S.-issue jungle boots; and when you can get a new pair of boots issued, why bother with keeping your old ones serviceable?! Do you (or anybody else out there) know where the French manufacturers came up with the idea for pataugas? Was it based on WWII U.S. boots like the so-called USMC Raider boots? (They were also somewhat "reproduced" within the last ten years by Converse as the limited edition Bosey. And those were based on contemporary athletic shoes like P.F. Flyers anyway) Or, was it based on a British boot or on just a common French canvas athletic shoe? Speaking of French footwear, I've been poking around some vintage French clothing websites, and have found some low boots and shoes that greatly resemble the Mle 1950 jump boot (especially in the toe and lace-up area)...they're very similar to the "monkey boots" that ska and/or skinhead girls used to wear. And here's a scan of a 1986 Banana Republic catalog showing pataugas:
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Post by lew on Oct 8, 2014 7:42:50 GMT -5
Foot powder is your friend. It will keep your feet smelling nicer and prevent you from getting a fungal infection going. Abrasion is a more formidable enemy to the shoes than wetness. The inspiration for Pataugas and the US Jungle Boot of WW2-vintage almost certainly came from Converse , which started making lightweight canvas and rubber athletic shoes a couple decades before WW2. The Palladium Company originally made aircraft tires. After the War, airplanes and airplane parts were everywhere, so the demand for new tires was drastically reduced. In 1947, they turned their rubber-processing expertise to shoe soles, added the canvas and they are still around today, thankfully. Converses were popular with Algerian rebels operating within the country during that war, while the Chinese-made Pataugas went to the standing ALN armies in Morocco and Tunisia (which did nothing more than sit on the sidelines (literally) during the conflict). They were also somewhat popular with the French forces for wear in-garrison and off duty. There was a low-cut version of the Mle. 52 jump boot made (brodequin Mle. 52.). It is identical to the boot from the ankle down. Obviously, it has no ankle cuff and buckles. These were used for boot camp-type activities. I have not seen a picture of them in the field in Algeria. Other brodequins- Mles. 17, 35, and 45- were all used in Indochina, but they had no jump boot equivalent.
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Post by lew on Mar 24, 2015 18:34:33 GMT -5
An FYI: It looks as if Palladium has discontinued the Hi Pampa in the OTAN/Army Green color. I'm going to see if they will do a cusrom order or some such. They still offer the "stonewashed khaki", which are the right color for period-correct privately-purchased shoes. They've added a brand tag underneath the eyelets on the outside, so that will need to be cut off. Otherwise, they're the same.
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Post by Étienne on Mar 25, 2015 15:28:48 GMT -5
well, sheez...of course they did, as too many people were buying them I guess! There must be a god out there somewhere that doesn't want one to be able to correctly portray a FIW soldier. I should have bought a few more pairs when I could. I have found a few places that sell them online still, but most are sold out; for instance, www.tobocoo.com/mens-palladium-pampa-hi-canvas-otanarmy-green-p-14505 has them, but they're slightly more expensive than they could be had via Amazon. The Palladium Pallabrouse are close, but the sewn "racing stripe" on the side isn't correct for this period (or was that a feature of any private purchase boots?), and they are more expensive.
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Post by lew on Mar 25, 2015 16:32:31 GMT -5
Have you dealt with that Tobocoo company? Something seemed off, and I'm usually a wary individual, so I decided against ordering from them.
There's a French company- Mag Force, I do believe- that makes Pataugas. I can't seem to find their site.
I saw the Pallabrouse. I don't know why they bothered with the stripe, but they didn't ask me.
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Post by Étienne on Mar 25, 2015 17:34:37 GMT -5
I have not...my internet purchasing alarm went off as well, with a web address/name like that.
Ha...yeah, I've seen it before but it was on a 1970s-ish pair of civilian Palladiums, and I've seen some Chinese/NVA versions that had it (I think they were early 1960s). The latter makes me wonder if it was perhaps a feature of some private-purchase pataugas.
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Post by lew on Mar 25, 2015 19:22:00 GMT -5
I've never seen the stripe on any period Pataugas, issued or not.
Oh well, at least they still offer the brown/sand/khaki version of the Hi Pampa, which is (mostly) period-correct.
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Post by Étienne on Mar 25, 2015 20:08:43 GMT -5
Here's a few photos I have of pataugas that I sold awhile back on ebay with the stripes (the sand/khaki ones are French made Palladiums from the 1970s or so, and the green ones are original Chicom/NVA ones from the 1960s) I think the "stripe" was added to stiffen the sides, but I'm not quite sure. Maybe they're like racing stripes so you can run faster? Attachments:
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Post by lew on Mar 26, 2015 9:11:15 GMT -5
Neat. Still, I've yet to see any period- (and place) correct Pataugas used by French forces with the strip/stripe. That seems to be a late-60's through the '70's thing. It would be a lot easier on us if they did use them in Indo/Algérie.
The good news is this: I just checked my picture archive and the brown used on the private-purchase Palladiums is the same tone and shade as their modern offering: "Peru". The "stonewashed khaki" is the same, but a little more "faded".
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Post by Étienne on Mar 26, 2015 18:01:32 GMT -5
I'm actually surprised they didn't show up in Algeria, but maybe they weren't used in the civilian world until just after the Algerian War. But heck, what do I know anyway...there are times I've sworn up and down that a specific boot wasn't used until Algeria, and then I find a bunch of FIW photos of them being worn!
That's good to hear, at least there's a "replacement" to use from Palladium since their Otan green boots are no longer available. But as you well know anyway, after getting them worn in and dirty they could be anything but black or white almost and look good. When I first got the Otan green ones I was worried that they looked too "minty green," but after wearing them a few times...not so much now
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Post by craigtx on Apr 3, 2015 16:36:32 GMT -5
Never say never... Something will show up and prove ya wrong. I like to say I haven't seen evidence of, or not usual practice...
Craig
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Post by lew on Apr 4, 2015 8:16:31 GMT -5
I have over nine thousand pictures of Algeria with a few hundred more to sort through. Many of those show adequate detail on footwear. I feel confident stating that the Pataugas with the strip on the side wasn't used during the war, but I will definitely keep an eye out. I would like to be proven wrong in this instance.
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Post by Étienne on Apr 4, 2015 16:55:28 GMT -5
Like we chatted about earlier, if they are even period perhaps they were private purchase/civvie versions. The FFL book has a photo of some pataugas in their collection, and they have the "stripe" but it is sewn into it (i.e. it's only stitching, not an additional piece of fabric).
I think it's a late 1960s or even 1970s and later thing, but the only fly in that ointment is the PLA/Chinese and/or NVA pataugas that have the stripe that are supposed to have been first made in the very early 1960s. I'll have to look at some photos of original, earlier NVA boots to double check.
I'm going to have to start getting out my magnifying glass for some photos with some of these discussions we're having...
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Post by craigtx on Apr 5, 2015 10:24:33 GMT -5
The thing I've discovered about French troops from WW2 through late Indo is that a magnifier is necessary. They were receiving aid and outfitting from so many sources that the devil is truly in the details. i.e. French troops in Italy (WW2) were supplied by the U.S.. However the photo is captioned as being 13eme DBLE. They retained their berets, apparently have U.S. HBTs, but are still wearing what appears to be Mle 1917 brodequins with puttees. Go figure... I'm still combin' that photo with a magnifying glass tryin' to make out details.
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Post by lew on Apr 5, 2015 19:28:08 GMT -5
As we've all seen, the troops were issued gear from anyone and everyone, and older, serviceable gear was seldom withdrawn from service. Instead, it was used until it was lost, fell apart, or went home when/if the soldier rotated out of country.
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Post by lew on Apr 6, 2015 12:30:22 GMT -5
Update: There is a German (?) firm called Mil-Tec that makes all kinds of military and law enforcement products, to include chaussures de brousse. I have been trying to locate a source for a pair of their jungle shoes in green. Outwardly, they look exactly like the Palladium Hi Pampa sans the rubber disc on the inside ankle, and they would work well for our purposes. I wouldn't be surprised if they were made by the same Chinese supplier that makes Palladium's.
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Post by lew on Apr 6, 2015 12:37:53 GMT -5
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Post by Étienne on Apr 6, 2015 15:28:42 GMT -5
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Post by lew on Apr 6, 2015 17:27:20 GMT -5
Cool. Have you dealt with either source?
As much as I like the Palladiums and as much as they will work well for our purpose, the other offerings look more like those made in-theater and by other makers. So, I appreciate the variety.
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Post by Étienne on Apr 6, 2015 20:21:19 GMT -5
I have not bought anything from either place, but the global.rakuten website seems to be a cross between Amazon and Ebay. I see a lot of interesting items for sale on it. Btw, is that link even working for anyone? For some reason, it doesn't go directly to the item for me anymore; try typing in "France army type canvas boots fs04gm" or go through the "shoes" category. Also, I've attached an image of the boots at the end of this post. Yer right on that one. Palladiums are made in China now, so why worry about getting a Chinese produced boot anyway?! Plus, as you kinda said, it adds variety into our boot repertoire. Plus, since the boots won't last forever if worn regularly, it's nice to have a cheap source of them. Attachments:
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Post by Étienne on Apr 6, 2015 20:37:26 GMT -5
I just looked into (i.e. Googled) Rakuten online, and it gets mixed reviews. Some people had their credit card #'s stolen, but other people said that they had very positive experiences with the site. As one reviewer said, with such a large site you'll have good and bad vendors.
I just tried a sample "run through" to purchase the OD French boots (they look more like "NVA green" to me), and as far as I got in the process (up until giving my cred card #), it basically stated the shipping was zero $. So the boots would be just under $26.00 US if that is true. Hmmmm...
BTW, the place that sells the boots also has Mle 47 field jackets for under $25.
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Post by lew on Apr 7, 2015 11:16:23 GMT -5
The link goes to a store front, but the shoes can be found from there.
I'll try the Mil-Tec option first, and I might chance it with Rakuten. That's half the price of Palladium and I'll probably get three or four pairs since I wear them frequently.
As always, you are a tremendous help.
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Post by Étienne on Apr 8, 2015 9:19:47 GMT -5
Awww, shucks. I do what I can...
But yeah, at those prices we can afford to give them a trial run without weeping over ill-spent money if they fail
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Post by lew on Apr 8, 2015 20:04:24 GMT -5
Providing our credit card info isn't bankrolling the Yakuza, religious extremists, or international terrorist, I'm okay with the risk.
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Post by Étienne on Apr 9, 2015 17:01:54 GMT -5
I think you're right...especially if a credit card is used there is virtually no risk for us, the consumer. I mean, who's crazy enough to buy a bunch of pairs of those boots anyway?!? By the way, in my hunt for P44 gear, I also found this source of pataugas: www.sofmilitary.co.uk/french-jungle-boots.-product,11873
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Post by lew on Apr 10, 2015 11:37:13 GMT -5
Excellent. They're out of stock in my size, but I have them bookmarked. With these sources available, it's good to know we don't have to rush to scrounge what we can and can instead take our time.
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