Aspirant in Northern Virginia

[topbreak]

Greetings from Northern Virginia.

To give a frame of reference, I'm a long time collector of militaria and associated bits.  

I recently attended the open house at the "Tank Farm" in Nokesville VA and met some French Indochina re-enactors (portraying Legion paras).  

This grabbed my interest.

I have the beginnings of an infantry impression, Mle 47 fatigues and p/37 belt and am now pondering where to go from there.

[earlymb]

Welcome! I'd recommend you look into a few books on the subject; there are various titles from Osprey, Histoire & Collections etc and more in-depth, the book by Raymond Guyader.

I'm sure others will follow up with more info.

[topbreak]

These titles are on my bookshelf

Osprey Titles
- Foreign Legion Infantry since 1945
- French Indochina War 1946-54
- Algerian War
- Foreign Legion Paratroops

Squadron/Signal titles
- Ground War Vietnam Vol 1
- Armor in Vietnam

General History
- Howard Simpson's Dien Bien Phu
- Fredrik Logevall's Embers of War
- Martin Windrow's Uniforms of the French Foreign Legion
- Douglass Porch's The French Foreign Legion
- Hugh McLeave's The Damned Die Hard

I had, but traded away, a copy of Street Without Joy (facepalm).
Not familiar with Guyader, but his book is now on my wish list.
Thanks for the tip.

[craigtx]

I'd recommend all of Fall's works on Indochina/Viet Nam. Guyader is a major reference work if you're interested in the La Legion. Anything Windrow has a hand in for La Legion is worth having. The BEPs and the Legion are my area of interest, so feel free to ask questions. Do yourself a favor, as the Indo/Algerie kit has become more scarce do your research first before buying. It'll save ya money, and heartache in the long run.

And Bienvenue!

[lew]

Bienvenue!

The other creeps have posted some excellent title recommendations. A French language publication- Gazette des Uniformes- has/had digital copies of their magazine available for download as .pdfs for something like a euro a piece. Not every issue contains information relevant to Indo, but you can pick and choose. In addition, I bought a bunch of issues of Militaria Magazine off of fleabay for cheap.

[topbreak]

Thanks for the greetings and advice on references.

My initial thought is to build an impression around the Mle 47 fatigues that I already have.

And Lew, I think I've run into you on another forum.

C'est la Internet.

[lew]

Sept 30, 2021 11:47:27 GMT -5 topbreak said:

And Lew, I think I've run into you on another forum.

My ass gits around, and my interests are varied.

[craigtx]

And the rest of him too... ;-)

[Kenneth]

Topbreak, you probably know George Petersen, who used to have a store in the Newington area, now only on-line. He was one of the first people I got to know when I moved to Northern Virginia around 1973, when he was working in the old Collector's Armory store (I think it was), just off South Washington Street. He sometimes had French stuff.

Unfortunately, just about all the old surplus-type stores are gone now. So there's no place to go on Saturday mornings now. They occasionally had French items. One had stacks of the old French rucksack but that was probably 25 years ago. They were new, too, or at least unissued. I keep wondering how unissued things from 50 or 75 years ago keep turning up.

[topbreak]

Sadly I'm not familiar with Petersen. I've been in NOVA since 1991, and my go-to for militaria has long been Full Metal Jacket, even back when it was on the waters edge of Prince Street in Alexandria.

I actually found my Mle 47s at a place called Slindy's in Culpeper VA, mislabeled as Soviet era fatigues, and selling for cheap. Slindy's is gone now, but FMJ is still around, relocated just off of Duke Street.

As for how unissued stuff from 50-75 years turns up, consider that lots of this stuff was stocked up for the big war(s) that never happened. They then got packed away for some future need that never materialized.

It is sad to see that brick & mortar surplus shops are either fading away or are becoming tacticool gear dealerships. Often the people who work(ed) there were a greater resource than anything they might have had in stock. E(vil)bay and Big River just can't replace that reservoir of knowledge.

[Kenneth]

Yes, the walk-in surplus stores are indeed scarce. In addition to Petersen's "National Capital Historical Sales, these was Sunny's Surplus (that's been a while), and Ranger Surplus, which at one time had eight or nine locations. There was a store on Rt. 1 somewhere down in Prince William County. There were others, too, here and there, mostly small. It's entirely possible there isn't much actual surplus to go around any more. Even the trendy Banana Republic started out as a surplus store. Petersen today is mainly limited to badges, medals and ribbons and patches. I haven't seen him for a while but I'm told he stops by Full Metal Jacket once in a while, just as I do. In fact, my French Army "rangers" came from there--purchased on eBay.

When we were in London several years ago, I was able to visit Silverman's Surplus. Their stuff was actually all new but you couldn't wander around the store. Even so, there was a lot to look at and fondle. We were in Paris on another trip but I wasn't able to visit La Tranchee Militaire. That would have been an expensive visit if I had.

[topbreak]

I remember Sunny's Surplus, and I felt that it was always hit or miss.

Ranger Surplus, particularly their Fairfax and Tyson's locations, were VERY familiar, and now very missed.

As far as I can tell, surplus runs in cycles. You have boom periods where there is a genuine SURPLUS of choices, and then you have bust periods where its all the same old sh*t.

The '90s were a definite boom period. The end of the Cold War caused huge amounts of material to be surplused for cheap. The member states of the Warsaw Pact either no longer existed (in the case of East Germany) or had far more stuff that they didn't really want and could never hope to use. Everyone else was trying to cash in on the "end of history" and realize a "peace dividend". Some poor sods are STILL trying to get rid of their stocks of Swiss Alpenflage.

Add to this some willful and / or deliberate ignorance. Belgian brushstroke pants being sold as Rhodesian, and for cheap.

[Kenneth]

There was someone in New York selling Civil War surplus in the 1950s. I keep thinking there's a warehouse somewhere with bundles of blue wool US Army shirts. Will settle for O.D. One unfortunate thing about surplus uniforms is that, I believe, normal sized got used up first. Another gentleman, who happened to be German and sold things at the local Scottish games, said there really wasn't enough surplus to fill up the pipeline for retail sales. On the other hand, current issue stuff should be easier to find, at least in theory. I will admit that something was brand-new issue 40 years ago still seems like current issue to me.

I notice that What Price Glory now has French M47 khaki shirts. Sizing is his usual chest measurements style.

[lew]

Oct 16, 2021 6:00:28 GMT -5 Kenneth said:

I keep wondering how unissued things from 50 or 75 years ago keep turning up.

Regarding the French, their very large and competent industrial base was fully back on track by 1952 or so. In addition to the normal spares, the military command planned for Algeria to be a much longer conflict, hence why there still is plenty of that surplus out there (getting scarcer, of course). Given the massive demobilization post-1962, that leaves a lot of cool gear for weirdos like us!

I too miss the surplus stores of old. Spent lots of time in them as a kid/teen. But I'd be lying if I said I would go to one local now. I barely go to the closest gun stores as it is.

[topbreak]

The brick & mortar shops that survive tend to increasingly cater to preppers, "black rifle" fans, and those who want the latest in tacticool gear. Now, I am certainly not knocking this, since I've been guilty of such silliness myself, but there's only so much one can take of Multicam, 5.11, and all things Armalite.

The places I've frequented and have liked are set apart by the knowledge of their staff. If they didn't have what I was looking for, they had a very good notion of where I could find it. They also tended to have stories to tell . . .

I've heard stories of the outfit in New York, IRC it was called Bannerman's.

[Kenneth]

Bannerman's ran ads in gun magazines in the 1950s. So did a couple of gun shops in Alexandria, VA. Prices were rock bottom, only I didn't have any money. But you could buy guns through the mail. Lugers for $59.85, P-38s for $42.50 and .45 autos for $44.00. Prices from the July 1959 issue of Guns, which had an article about Bill Jordon and another about James Arness. No French firearms in any advertisements, however, and no M-1s, either. Both M-1s and Lee-Enfield No 4 rifles had just gone out of production.

When my son was undergoing training at Ft. Knox, about 20 years ago, I was down there when he finished and visited a couple of "real" surplus stores just outside of the post. But it was just about all American surplus. I'm sure I bought something but I don't remember what.

[earlymb]

Oct 28, 2021 15:00:48 GMT -5 Kenneth said:

Lugers for $59.85, P-38s for $42.50 and .45 autos for $44.00

1959 $59.85 in 2021: $564.17

1959 $42.50 in 2021: $400.62

1959 $44.00 in 2021: $414.76

Still pretty cheap

[lew]

Oct 28, 2021 13:02:57 GMT -5 topbreak said:

The brick & mortar shops that survive tend to increasingly cater to preppers, "black rifle" fans, and those who want the latest in tacticool gear. Now, I am certainly not knocking this, since I've been guilty of such silliness myself, but there's only so much one can take of Multicam, 5.11, and all things Armalite.

For sure. That's why I don't bother with them anymore. All my modern tac shit is researched and purchased online. No local store (except for the one manufacturer that is local) is going to carry the quality, made-anywhere-other-than-china gear I want. I can do without all the chicom Rothco, 5.11, etc... crap. Give me old, musty surplus gear, ammo cans that gas you when you open them, and helmets with a little rust and character!

[Kenneth]

I haven't seen any of those handguns at those prices. Maybe I just live in an expensive area. However, I did buy the last P38 I saw for sale.

For the most part, when one is actually in the service (at least in the army), you aren't interested in old stuff. You want the latest. And the old stuff seems to disappear so quickly, although with uniforms, once something is obsolete, it can't be worn anymore. In the time since I got out of the army in 1968, it seems like there have been frequent changes in uniforms. But in reality, they haven't changed any more than they ever did. In fact, some things that seem to be so iconic, like the WWII parachutist uniform, only lasted a couple of years before being replaced by the standard field jacket and trousers. Some of those items lasted a long time, too. I enlisted in 1965 and was issued a pair of pre-1952 field pants, the kind without cargo pockets (and I got a pair of those, too). I was barely conscious of it at the time, though.

Naturally enough, the same thing was happening with the French. Some items apparently were produced only for a short time before being replaced by a later version. Here I'm thinking of the pattern 44 cotton battle dress and the 44/45 wool battle dress. The former would have been replaced by the 1947 outfit, the latter by the 1946 wool uniform. So it's unlikely that very much of the earlier patterns survived as late as the Indo-china war part 2 (Algeria). But I'm getting harder to surprise.

In spite of all I've just said, it's also worth noting that it should not be assumed that when a new pattern is introduced, that it will quickly become available, or for that matter, liked by those who are issued with it. Likewise, it can be that certain things are in short supply at any given time for one reason or another, and that's true in all armies. Some things will continue to be used as long as they're on hand, even if they are not being produced at the moment. Supposedly kepis became scarce during the war.

Something else worth mentioning is that the French manufactured clothing in Indochina. However, clothing continued to be manufactured in South Vietnam after 1954, some of which was the same as French issue or nearly so. But the sizes are for Vietnamese and that will account for some really small uniforms that turn up now and then. I've seen some. They are authentic, only not authentic French.

Sorry for rambling.

[topbreak]

Some kit just gets passed further and further back in the line. I've seen pictures of US Army Reserves kitted out with BARs and WW2 webbing in the 1970s. I also remember reading about a M2 Browning discovered on active service with a date stamp from the 1920s.

Some things become so closely identified the certain groups and events that it becomes impossible to separate them. The tenue leopard (aka French Lizard) camouflage pattern became so associated with the French paras that it became THE uniform for francophone nations' "elite" forces. Due to this association, it was disappeared from widespread French service after the Algiers putsch.

[Kenneth]

You are correct about reserve and National Guard units still having M1s and BARs into the 1970s. I only had an M14 in the army and never saw anything else. But when I was in the D.C. National Guard about five years later, the issue rifle was an M16. I wonder if they ever had M14s.

One thing that makes a difference in what is issued is where the unit is and sometimes, how long it's been there. A common complaint in WWII (true or not) was that front line troops were the last to receive new things. I imagine that might be true since in a sense, they were at the end of the line. Surprisingly, there was sometimes resistance to new items because some general didn't like something. Imagine that!

With the French, units stuck in Indochina were cut off from the basic supply system, or at least they were as far as I know. What they had when the war started was all they ever had until after that war and before the next one started. It was a little different in North Africa, I think. Even so, the supply of some things became tight. That accounts for the lack of uniformity in clothing and equipment in so many photos. I imagine they learned to live with it. In fact, the Legion had always been that way. A recruit didn't have a lot of clothing issued to him but that was also true to some extent in most armies up through WWII. As a footnote, it's interesting to learn what solders were actually issued (or at least supposed to be). But sometimes, even with official documents, it can be confusing.

[lew]

Oct 30, 2021 10:45:31 GMT -5 Kenneth said:

With the French, units stuck in Indochina were cut off from the basic supply system, or at least they were as far as I know. What they had when the war started was all they ever had until after that war and before the next one started. It was a little different in North Africa, I think. Even so, the supply of some things became tight.

I'm afraid I'm not understanding the first part, as French logistics to Indochina were undisturbed by the war (discounting some attempted sabotage by the leftists), and even the besieged garrison at DBP had new uniforms airdropped regularly. Yes, it took awhile for French industry to recover from the occupation, but their logistics system was amply compensated by British and, later, US assistance. Better to use up the free stuff first. Sure, their supply situation was more meager than we in the US are used to, and new introductions slower to reach issue, but French and French Union forces were not wanting for basic clothing.

As to the second part, you are absolutely correct: The logistics network in North Africa (and in other French holdings) was well-established and amply maintained, having much better existing infrastructure. For a comprehensive look at the topic, I highly recommend "The First Helicopter War: Logistics and Mobility in Algeria, 1954-1962" by Charles R. Schrader, 1999. Tons of info, but still an easy and engaging read.

[Kenneth]

I meant World War II. You're saying that French units in Indochina during WWII received supplies from France during WWII?

[lew]

Gotcha. Carry on then!