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Post by Étienne on Aug 22, 2015 16:47:23 GMT -5
I've looked through the "archives" of this forum and couldn't find any definitive information on the topic, so I'm gonna put it out there for us to discuss...when did the Mle 51 canteen covers switch between Lift-A-Dot's (LAD) and snaps? (I think the Mle. 52 canteen and cover has been covered enough and has been 99.999% defined as being incorrect for FIW, so no need to discuss it here.)
I have two Mle 51 LAD covers, and only one has a readable date, of 1954. I looked through Denis Lassus's article(s) and didn't find any detailed information, except that he stated the snap style cover is earlier! I was under the impression that the snaps were later...
(Lassus also mentions, BTW, that owing to the 1953 and later RAPCO buckle, the loops on the covers were enlarged so as to fit over the taller buckle and onto the belt, so that might be one way of dating covers.)
So which came first, the LAD or the snap? Any ideas, my fellow FIW enthusiasts?
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Post by Étienne on Aug 23, 2015 16:41:12 GMT -5
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Post by lew on Aug 24, 2015 7:51:13 GMT -5
All of the three Mle. 51 covers I have are equipped with snaps, and all were a royal pain to fit the loops over a Mle. 50 TAP belt, particularly the buckle. I can't imagine trying to slip those over a 50/53. Even when past the buckle, the loops hold very tight to the belt. I have no idea which came first, but, given that the snap version is much more common, I'd say that that is the second version as the LTD/LAD versions were likely used up. I'm hoping the snap version is correct for Indo because I really don't want to modify them.
Le housse de gourde Mle. 52 with two sets of snaps is post-Algeria. Early '70's, I do believe.
Also, I sent you a message. Cheers!
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Post by craigtx on Aug 26, 2015 12:13:36 GMT -5
I did some looking at some photos and talking to some folk. The loops work well for the leather belts, and just don't fit on the pistol belts (ridiculous if you ask me...) But on some photos it looks like they've run wire hanger(s) through the loops to affix it to the pistol belt.
I'll see if I can't find the photos again...
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Post by lew on Aug 26, 2015 16:27:30 GMT -5
They fit on the canvas portion of the belt okay, but threading the buckle through can require some imagination and swear words.
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Post by craigtx on Aug 26, 2015 21:13:00 GMT -5
Well I have plenty of swear words in stock...
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Post by toussant on Aug 26, 2015 23:02:09 GMT -5
Found a nice supply of what may be the canteens of which you speak, here in the U.S. through Omaha Militaria. It looks to me just like the ones you have pictured elsewhere on the site. I picked one up earlier this week form $20+ shipping and received a nice piece with a bakelite cap, sound red rubber seal, canteen cup as seen in your picture, and the very same snapped Od cover with loop and wire suspension. It had some kind of food grade cosmoline-like substance inside, but scrubbed up clean with degreaser and good HOT water. By the by, they also have some excellent M1 carbine pouches that may work as well- I picked up two of the 'sterile' models that are designed to be slipped over a pistol belt. Again, excellent shape and look like French made pouches I've seen posted on the board. Hope it works for you... Bon Chance! ---Toussant
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Post by lew on Aug 27, 2015 7:37:16 GMT -5
That would be the Mle. 52 canteen and cover. Not used in Indochina, but the standard in Algeria. Definitely the nicest military-issue canteen. Great capacity, thick aluminum, and the wide mouth is helpful for cleaning or adding ice. As I mentioned above, the cover with the double set appeared in the early '70's, so beyond the typical scope of interest around here.
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Post by toussant on Aug 27, 2015 14:07:59 GMT -5
Good to know! I have a nice WWII American original that I'll use instead, thanks for the heads up! How about the carbine pouches, would those work? ---Toussant
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Post by Étienne on Aug 28, 2015 20:39:19 GMT -5
Just found/saw this Mle 52 cover on eBay; note the date of 1955:   It ain't a repro, is it?!? |
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Post by Étienne on Aug 28, 2015 20:47:47 GMT -5
Good to know! I have a nice WWII American original that I'll use instead, thanks for the heads up! How about the carbine pouches, would those work? ---Toussant I'm not sure about that type of M1 carbine pouch still...they were very late war (WWII) but those ones from Omaha do look somewhat French made, or perhaps Belgian even, but it's highly unlikely they are unmarked because they are "clandestine for CIA in Vietnam"!  I've only seen FIW photos of the earlier style M1 Carbine pouches in use that I recall |
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Post by Étienne on Aug 30, 2015 20:28:38 GMT -5
To continue in my nerdiness, here are two more pics: a LTD type Mle 51 cover, dated 1954:  and a snap type Mle 51 cover with two snaps on each side (an Algeria period retrofit for the Mle 52 canteen perhaps?):  From the Swat Shop website (http://theswatshop.com/page15.htm): "NOTE: These early pouches came with 1 pair of male snaps (on the body of the pouch). Some, like this pouch were returned & factory "retro-fitted" with 2nd set of male snaps and then re-issued." So, so far, according to the dates I've seen on covers, the LTD type Mle 51's were produced until at least 1954, and the snap type Mle 51's were produced as early as 1956.
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Post by toussant on Aug 30, 2015 20:52:16 GMT -5
Hey Steve,
Take a look at the carbine pouches on Liberty Tree Collectors and compare them to the ones I mentioned at Omaha's Militaria- they are virtually the same unmarked, no hook grommets at the bottom, with web mount straps to align on a combat belt. 'CIA' speculation or not, I don't think the Omaha folks really know what they have, (okay, I fell for the French canteen being Indochina, my mistake...) I think they will be the ones I'll use until I find a better replacement.
By the way, following your research above, could I use the Cover from that canteen until I get a mle 51 canteen? I'm pretty handy, and could easily retro fit with LTD fittings- what's your thought on the matter? ---Toussant
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Post by Étienne on Sept 1, 2015 21:31:09 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't know about those. I've never seen any French made M1 Carbine pouches (excepting the Mle 51/53 pouch that holds MAS36 clipped ammo and/or M1 Carbine mags) with provenance so I can't make an informed decision. So many countries used the weapon after WWII it would tae some time to figure out each and every type of pouch made. I have some original/WWII dated M1 Carbine pouches but also can use my Mle 51/53's.
At the risk of bringing down the wrath of Lew, I'd say go for it! Especially if snaps were used on FIW issued covers. You can always use it until you find (or make) a correct one. A long time ago we used to modify the Mle 52 covers by removing the original loop and hanger and adding web loops on the back so they'd look correct, as original Mle 51's were very hard/next to impossible to find in the US at the time.
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Post by lew on Sept 2, 2015 8:31:47 GMT -5
No wrath here to give (at least not on this topic  ). If you have the tools and patience, modify away. To a trained eye, the covers are not too difficult to distinguish. I have other things to focus on for my impressions, so, as blasphemous as this may be, I'm going to leave Mle. 51 cover snaps in place for now. If I get around to modifying them, cool. If not, oh well. Other Steve: The eBay-find canteen cover is almost certainly original. Some had the belt loop and some didn't. The TAP belt required the M1910 wire hangers and the Mle. 45 leather belt needed to loop (or an adapter for the wire). One of my issues of Militaria magazine has one like that dated 1954. As for Carbine pouches, don't sweat it: all US varieties were used and the French-made variants run the gamut of features and details. My books are packed away, but I believe all French-made pouches had the two belt loops and not sleeve with the snap stud. |
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Post by Étienne on Sept 16, 2015 21:17:26 GMT -5
To continue beating this dead horse... Just scrounged several more photos of eBay, showing the dates of various canteens and covers. Here's a Mle 51 canteen pic:  and Mle 52 canteen and cup:  and Mle 52 cover:  |
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Post by lew on Sept 17, 2015 8:02:40 GMT -5
Wild. Apparently, someone didn't get the memo, as I'm assuming production overlapped.
When I unbox all my stuff, I'll check the dates on my '52's and covers. Neither of the '51 canteens is stamped, unfortunately.
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Post by Étienne on Sept 17, 2015 10:30:00 GMT -5
as you stated, either a contractor didn't get the memo...or we've traced the Mle 52 canteen set as coming out in March of 1954!  |
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Post by toussant on Sept 25, 2015 23:30:02 GMT -5
The top picture Steve posted is none other than the Mle 51 canteen I recently purchased from the fellow out of AR that seems to have some Indo pieces for sale fairly often-- picked up the earlier matching cover with the lift the dot snaps as well! Now I can assemble a nice later Indo rig with mostly French made kit. Makes me happy...
---Toussant
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Post by toussant on Oct 4, 2015 22:24:05 GMT -5
By the way, Anyone have the short cup they'd be willing to sell off to complete the set? Let me know what you'd need for it...
---Toussant
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Post by lew on Oct 5, 2015 10:02:10 GMT -5
Scour eBay.fr. I've seen Mle. 51 cups for sale alone.
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Post by Étienne on Oct 19, 2015 10:31:59 GMT -5
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Post by Étienne on Oct 19, 2015 11:36:10 GMT -5
I figured it would be one of us that got that canteen set...nice grab! He does have some nice and affordable Indochina stuff. I got a pair of Mle 47 trousers from him that are almost mint, fit me perfect, and have a Vietnamese name written in them (he also wrote the date of 1960 in them so I'm presuming he was ARVN).
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). If you have the tools and patience, modify away. To a trained eye, the covers are not too difficult to distinguish. I have other things to focus on for my impressions, so, as blasphemous as this may be, I'm going to leave Mle. 51 cover snaps in place for now. If I get around to modifying them, cool. If not, oh well.
