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Post by devildog1775 on Apr 14, 2013 3:27:06 GMT -5
Hello Everyone, I am still absolutely stumped, after searching the internet for countless hours, on what type of musette bag / pack is being used in the picture shown below. The pack I am trying to have identified is the man's second from left, (the MAS-36 rifleman). (The wonderful, detailed, photographs are from Wehrmacht-Awards.com). I am hoping someone can tell me the specific designation for this particular pack. The only thing I could find, via the internet, was that it is either a Foreign Legion M1949 small backpack, or a British P37 pattern large pack. I do not know if it is either, but I could be wrong. I am hoping someone can pinpoint the exact type for me. I greatly appreciate any information anyone can send my way. Thank you so much.  |
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Post by spudpunk on Apr 23, 2013 16:59:22 GMT -5
Looks like the packs you can get from Tranchemilitaire for £15 and were used in Intimate Enemies. I was told they were used in Algeria but couldn't swear to them being in IndoChina. As a side note. What is the general thought on said films like Intimate Enemies and the more recent Stranded as good reference material?
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us37
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Post by us37 on Apr 25, 2013 9:00:39 GMT -5
in Indochina the paratroops use the musette TAP50   but it seems in the picture is a musette TTA51, this model has not been used in Indochina   the problem is the musetteTAP50 is hard to find and expensive, the TTA51 costs nothing but is not good for Indo |
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us37
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Posts: 45
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Post by us37 on Apr 25, 2013 9:03:04 GMT -5
on the picture,
the man left and the middle, wearing TTA51.
Man bottom left wears a TAP50
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Post by devildog1775 on May 15, 2013 20:59:17 GMT -5
Spudpunk and us37 thank you so much for your replies to my question. I really appreciate both of your remarks. This particular question has plagued me for some time now, but now I know the answer. Cheers.
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Post by lew on Oct 2, 2013 19:11:48 GMT -5
Looks like the packs you can get from Tranchemilitaire for £15 and were used in Intimate Enemies. I was told they were used in Algeria but couldn't swear to them being in IndoChina. As a side note. What is the general thought on said films like Intimate Enemies and the more recent Stranded as good reference material? The TAP Mle. 50 packs were supplanted by the TAP Mle. 55 packs upon its introduction, and the Mle. 50 Bergam pack was more common, so the TAP Mle. 50 pack was not seen often in Algeria. In fact, of about 7000 pictures I have plus books, I don't remember seeing one. L'Ennemi Intime was quite accurate on all fronts. As far as war movies (of any period) go, it's near the top. |
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Post by rasperguy on Sept 29, 2015 7:26:12 GMT -5
ok so then both would be correct for Indo-China? Why not the 51, you would think they where issued, as such a early issue compared to the length of stay in Indochina, to 55. I agree that I see most of the troops wearing TAP Mle.55 packs in Algeria and Mle. 50 Bergams, very little use of the Mussettes...
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Post by lew on Oct 1, 2015 11:27:21 GMT -5
They're not exactly heavy-duty packs, so the did wear out. The musettes 50 and 51 were actually used in the early days of Algeria, especially with the Colonial units returning from overseas.
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Post by rasperguy on Oct 6, 2015 13:51:34 GMT -5
I guess the issue is that folks believe that only the Mle 50 Musette pack was issued in Indochina, which just does not jive to what I know on military issuance. If the Mle 50 was only made and issued for one year before they switched to the Mle 51 which was made up to 1955 at least. One would think that from 52 onwards anyone issued a musette would have been a Mle 51?
I have the same issue but less so with the Mle51-2 canteens. Canteens are used until they are broke so kept.
But...
There is not a lot of pics of guys wearing musettes that I can see to blanket say in my opinion the other was not issued, because most of the Pics I see guys on patrol are going with Mle 50 mountain rucks and or going light, not using musettes, meaning to me they were not a popular issue item, too small etc. Hence why replaced with the Mle 55 version.
Canteens I see a lot of French carriers and US canteens being used, but some could be the later French canteen hard to say from pics at times?
Just curious how this idea of Not issued comes about? Based upon unit supply records, vet accounts or just Pics? All have some variance on truth or not.
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Post by lew on Oct 6, 2015 17:45:49 GMT -5
I'm of the opinion that at least some makers of the Mle. 50 musette kept making them even as the Mle. 51 was introduced. Either that, or they whipped the '50's out really quick before the switch over. In the pictures in which they can be discerned, I see pretty equal proportions of '50's and 51's.
It's too bad most eyewitnesses are not around to tell the details. Even if they were, most soldiers of any era are not as obsessive as we are.
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Post by rasperguy on Oct 8, 2015 8:23:47 GMT -5
I'm of the opinion that at least some makers of the Mle. 50 musette kept making them even as the Mle. 51 was introduced. Either that, or they whipped the '50's out really quick before the switch over. In the pictures in which they can be discerned, I see pretty equal proportions of '50's and 51's. It's too bad most eyewitnesses are not around to tell the details. Even if they were, most soldiers of any era are not as obsessive as we are. Lew funny you say that because I have seen WWII reenacters besiege vets with questions on kit and they almost never remember what they had on at one battle or the other, truth be told they didn't care or had no idea on what it was, they where just given something and they wore it. Unless you are a supply guy or geardo you don't usually know what something is called beyond "belt" "canteen" "pack" "mussette" etc. I am guessing both where used, it certainly will be easier to get guys in a Mle 51 vs a Mle 50 mussette. Now on canteens, folks harp on the Mle 51 canteen is only used, but what about the Mle 52 that you can get today cheap and easy? I agree on the double snap covers being Algerian vintage. |
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Post by lew on Oct 8, 2015 9:29:44 GMT -5
Unfortunately for us, the Mle. 52 canteen was not used in Indochine. It was initially issued to French forces in Europe and North Africa upon its introduction, but did not make its way east. The Mle. 51 was the only contemporary French-produced canteen in use in the Extrême-Orient.
If you can find either the Mle. 50 or 51 musette TAP, you are doing very well. If not, the Bergam will fill in just fine.
Most folks don't care what their wearing or using when survival is the top priority.
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Post by Étienne on Oct 19, 2015 10:29:33 GMT -5
Most of what I've learned of French musettes has been from Lew, but my two cents is that the Mle 50 was for paras, and the 51 was TTA. Of course, that doesn't mean that a TTA unit would have refused the issue of a 50 or vice-versa. Of course, US M1936 musettes were also used by paras!
Perhaps certain supplies weren't being sent to Indochina by a certain point in the war (circa 1954-ish or so)? And, as has already been somewhat mentioned, Europe was the big "worry" war-wise to the French, not Indochina (just like it was to the US during the Vietnam War).
Having been in the US Army, and also having been a collector and a reenactor, I would think that I would always remember every detail about all my gear and weapons while in the military...but I've already forgotten stuff
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Post by lew on Oct 19, 2015 13:56:48 GMT -5
Étienne: There are both the Mle. 50 and Mle. 51 musette TAP. The Mle. 51 musette TTA is another item. Confusing, ain't it? The TAP musettes just differed in the fasteners used- Lift-The-Dot or snaps.
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Post by craigtx on Oct 19, 2015 21:04:14 GMT -5
Except for the 2nd model TAP50 Musette which has buttons...
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