felt
Nouvelle arrivée
Posts: 5
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Post by felt on Aug 2, 2010 3:41:18 GMT -5
Hello, I give you some pictures of the French Hotchkiss CMH Weapon. They was made in very few quantity like prototype. After the WW2 the french army search to have new weapon in 9x19mm for replacing Thompson, Sten and MP40 stocks. The Hotckiss firm produce this weapon and the St etienne manufacturing produce some MAT 49. Some of this weapons will give to paratroopers in Indochina War. After some tests the MAT 49 will be adopted. Approx 7000 Hotckiss CMH produced between 1947 to 1955         Regards FeLT |
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Post by hoover on Aug 2, 2010 9:30:33 GMT -5
Crazy SMG.  The German Bundeswehr tested the Weapon in 1956 but they intruduced the Israeli Uzi. Are there any proofs for being used in Indochina? |
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felt
Nouvelle arrivée
Posts: 5
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Post by felt on Aug 3, 2010 1:58:51 GMT -5
Hello,
They are some pictures of this SMG used in indochina but they are hard to find ...
Fab
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Post by cookie on Aug 5, 2010 11:29:30 GMT -5
There is a photo in 'Les armes francais en Indochine' published by Crepin-leblond. It shows a soldier wearing a Mle 51 helmet and TAP webbing. He is armed with the Hotchkiss Universal SMG above. It doesn't say though if it is Indochina or Algera. I think some small numbers of these weapons were used by commandos, GCMA and paras in the early fifties for trials.
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1rcp
Nouvelle arrivée
Posts: 9
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Post by 1rcp on Feb 8, 2012 0:02:51 GMT -5
HAS BEEN TOLD BY A RELIABLE SOURCE THAT THESE WERE NOT USED IN DIEN BIEN PHU
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Post by lew on Oct 2, 2013 7:22:17 GMT -5
There is a photo in 'Les armes francais en Indochine' published by Crepin-leblond. It shows a soldier wearing a Mle 51 helmet and TAP webbing. He is armed with the Hotchkiss Universal SMG above. It doesn't say though if it is Indochina or Algera. I think some small numbers of these weapons were used by commandos, GCMA and paras in the early fifties for trials. I have never seen any pictures nor heard mention of the Universal seeing service in Algeria. |
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jp
Nouvelle arrivée
Posts: 6 
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Post by jp on Nov 1, 2016 12:53:51 GMT -5
Cookie, could you post said photo as i have one and would like to see it. Jp
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jp
Nouvelle arrivée
Posts: 6
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Post by jp on Apr 22, 2017 2:47:18 GMT -5
Hello, They are some pictures of this SMG used in indochina but they are hard to find ... Fab Hi, Could you please post them if you have them? |
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Post by Kenneth on Dec 9, 2021 18:07:37 GMT -5
One source, "Modern Firearms," (that Russian website) states they were used early in the Indochina war. I'd never heard of it, until I finally realized there was a video about it on "Forgotten Weapons YouTube channel." A look at the photos reminds you of several different submachine guns.
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topbreak
Dans le théâtre de la guerre
Posts: 91
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Post by topbreak on Dec 10, 2021 11:28:08 GMT -5
To my eye, it looks like a MAT-49 and a Vigneron got drunk one night and this is what they got. It's interesting that the French were so obsessed with folding submachine guns.
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Post by lew on Dec 11, 2021 11:49:27 GMT -5
To my eye, it looks like a MAT-49 and a Vigneron got drunk one night and this is what they got. It's interesting that the French were so obsessed with folding submachine guns. Unfortunately, the Universal seems to have inherited its reliability from the Vigneron and not the MAT. The Vigneron was not awful by subgun standards, but Belgian troops did not speak highly of it. Thankfully, the MAT, probably the best open-bolt SMG, won that contest. Too bad we can't get them here in the Land of the Free.  When member Rullow and I met up in Pilsen a few years ago, he brought his deactivated PM MAT-49 to the bar. That thing was a delight. Oh well, I got an M-14 to put together. Topbreak, that is indeed Bao Dai front and center in picture #2. |
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topbreak
Dans le théâtre de la guerre
Posts: 91
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Post by topbreak on Dec 13, 2021 9:31:50 GMT -5
Given the incredibly ethical and incorruptable nature of the Bao Dai's State of Vietnam, on has to wonder how big a gap there was between the budgeted price of those weapons and the price someone actually paid.
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Post by lew on Dec 13, 2021 11:59:05 GMT -5
Given the incredibly ethical and incorruptable nature of the Bao Dai's State of Vietnam, on has to wonder how big a gap there was between the budgeted price of those weapons and the price someone actually paid. You're not suggesting that paragons of moral virtue such as the various governments of Vietnam cooked the books, are you?  |
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Post by Kenneth on Dec 14, 2021 6:36:37 GMT -5
Well, here's a question for all of you who served in Vietnam. Did any of you ever see a MAT-49 in use by South Vietnamese troops? It seems like there should have still been some around, along with other French weapons. But all the photos of South Vietnamese soldiers that I've seen (which really hasn't been many) show them with American weapons.
I spend my overseas time in Germany. I did occasionally see a Uzi.
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Post by lew on Dec 14, 2021 10:54:25 GMT -5
Not a vet, but I'd say, given the relative paucity of French weapons encountered by US troops, the French took whatever PM-49's and others that were still in the possession of French Union forces as they left. I think I remember reading something to that effect somewhere, sometime.
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Post by Kenneth on Dec 14, 2021 12:25:08 GMT -5
I did a search of photos of South Vietnamese Army and found only one image, which was a painting (probably from an Osprey book) of a Vietnamese soldier with a MAS-36. No other images contained French weapons. Virtually all the weapons in images that came up were American, either M1s, M1 carbines, or M16s, as well as BARs and Browning .30 caliber machine guns. Lots of North Vietnamese and Viet Cong images showed up, too, and with the exception of one or two Mosin-Nagant carbines, all of the small arms were Russian (or Chinese). One curious photo showed a US Navy Seal (it said) armed with what looked like an H&K G3, except that it had a longer, slightly curved magazine. Supposedly there was a predecessor to the G3 manufactured in both .30 carbine and 7.92k, but it seems unlikely that a fairly rare, presumably, rifle would have made it to Vietnam.
It's worth noting that .30 caliber weapons, both .30 carbine, M1 rifle and BAR, were still in service into the 1970s with the National Guard. However, the D.C. National Guard, which I was a member of in the late 70s, had, by then, M16s. I never saw one during my three years in the regular army in the 60s.
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Post by earlymb on Dec 16, 2021 8:25:07 GMT -5
One curious photo showed a US Navy Seal (it said) armed with what looked like an H&K G3, except that it had a longer, slightly curved magazine. Supposedly there was a predecessor to the G3 manufactured in both .30 carbine and 7.92k, but it seems unlikely that a fairly rare, presumably, rifle would have made it to Vietnam.
Could it have been a Stoner M63?
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Post by lew on Dec 16, 2021 10:35:02 GMT -5
One curious photo showed a US Navy Seal (it said) armed with what looked like an H&K G3, except that it had a longer, slightly curved magazine. Supposedly there was a predecessor to the G3 manufactured in both .30 carbine and 7.92k, but it seems unlikely that a fairly rare, presumably, rifle would have made it to Vietnam. Could it have been a Stoner M63?
No, though the SEALs certainly used that. What Early saw was an HK33 (5.56x45), which the SEALs trialed for awhile. They liked the 40 round mags, but, once the 30 rounders for the M-16 were readily available, the HK didn't offer many advantages. Plus, it was considerably heavier. |
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Post by Kenneth on Dec 16, 2021 16:33:45 GMT -5
The image I referred to was definitely not of a Stoner M63. Except for the magazine, it looked like an ordinary German G3 (or CETME rifle). It is more likely to have been an HK33, yet another rifle I'd never heard of, there being many such rifles. I don't recall that the image was dated, and in any event, it would be from the period after the French had left Indochina. All the same, I'm surprised that it showed up in Vietnam. It'd probably take me an hour to find the image again.
Wikipedia has pages on all these rifles, including the CEAM Modèle 1950. The page for the HK33, still in production, says it has been used in most conflicts in Southeast Asia, South Asia and the Middle East and it's neither American nor Russian.
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