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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 17, 2009 14:34:07 GMT -5
Last night, I made my usual rounds through the local bookstores here in Houston looking for things "French Indochina". I usually hit Barnes and Nobles, Borders, Half Price Books (a used book store with several chain stores across Texas and the southwest U.S.) and several other smaller stores here in the bayou city. When I got to Books a Million in downtown Houston, I took a closer look the various military history, weapon and hunting mags on the main magazine rack. I noticed something interesting: The paintballers have a half dozen mag's related to their sport. Although I am not a paintball afficianado ... "we" reenactors dont have anything on the magazine racks that matches the snazzy stuff put out by the p/b crowd. Several months ago I was contacted by one of the organizers for the biggest paintball event in the U.S. - "Oklahoma DDAY": www.ddayadventurepark.com/We got to talking about marketing and the ability to "get the word out" and he made a very prescient statement about WWI, II and Vietnam War reenacting. He stated that " ... you guys should be bigger than us because you came first but I think based upon what we've seen - your groups are really "clubs" that no one can get in on. You guys don't market or spend time getting to know the public. Only the Civil War guys are up on that and they do no marketing whatsoever. We've been out to WWII events but you guys hide behind your toys."I thought his comments were interesting, and of course, the mag's on the rack at Books a Million were proof the paintballers are not only up on marketing, they know how to push their product. The question to the board is this: Should 20th Century reenactors "market" to the wider public audience? If so, how? Is it true reenactors, in general are not interested in public events? If so, why? This might be a very interesting debate to have - to see where people are coming from on this issue. Feel free to comment as you see fit. Mick |
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Post by soldatsoucy1 on Aug 17, 2009 18:51:27 GMT -5
Mick, I think the same comments and queries could be posted in relation to airsoft. There is such a draw for both airsoft and paintball. being someone that played paintball a few years I think the thrill in large part is in the types of weapons and the actual possibility that that sucker hurts when you get hit.
Generally too, there is little requirement for discipline, uniformity, and the like and there is no requirment for actually having some detail of knowledge of history.
Unlike paintball where you can walk on with your own gear or "rent" gear at the place, it would be dang difficult to have that kind of setup for WWII reenacting. I think it will always be that way. Paintballiong and Airsoft are marketing rich because of the continued development of weapons and safety gear....
Heck, we use antiques or antique repros and I frankly think that WWII or FICW reenacting is not for the average joe that would play paintball or airsoft.
Its hard to gauge whether reenactors are interested in public events...depends on the event and the purpose of the event. We all do it for our own purposes and Im not quite sure I would want a bunch of the public to show up and participate in a reenactment.
My issue with reenacting is this: I cant speak for paintball and airsoft, but reenacting seems in large part to belong to the male white guy over 18 with little input or interaction with other ethnic groups. The 3e BCCP being an exception, and limited by my knowledge and experience...I recently did a impromptu survey of 30 reenacting group websites spanning the Civil War to Korea/Vietnam. The only ones that really appeared to include members in their group of other ethnic groups or ancestry were the FICW, Korea, and Vietnam groups. Perhaps an understandable thing but curious nontheless.
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Post by soldatsoucy1 on Aug 17, 2009 21:13:57 GMT -5
Hmm. I must say the idea of reenacting Chechen and former Soviet Bloc groups is intriguing. And true, price is one of the going aspects of whether or not to do our type of reenacting for sure.
Brings to mind the question of how long...on average...does it take for reenacting groups to feel that its appropriate to begin reenacting certain wars.
Question: When was the first reenactment of a military event and what prompted it?
I was reading something the other day about individuals in the early 1800s who had been in the Revol War that got together to reenact one particular battle.
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Post by grog on Aug 17, 2009 21:30:57 GMT -5
Not sure about other eras, but the first really organized WW2 events were held in the US around 1977, 32 years after the war. There were even a handful of WW2 vets that were reenactors in those early days (most would have only been in their 50s at that point).
Vietnam reenacting seemed to really take off around the mid '90s. That would put it at roughly 20 years after the war.
I guess it really depends on the scale and "popularity" of the conflict. Korean War and FIC are only just getting off the ground more than 50 years after those wars ended. Also keep in mind that while WW2 has been around for over 30 years, the "niche" theaters have only just begun to be reenacted in the past five to ten years... France 1940, PTO, North Africa, etc.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 17, 2009 22:55:45 GMT -5
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Post by oggy on Aug 18, 2009 4:16:01 GMT -5
Over here in the UK, there is a crossover, with WWII Airsoft becoming more and more popular. This has a distinct advantage, as some Airsofters are interested in 'getting the kit right', and go balls out for it.
After all, isn't Airsofting just a private battle? Possibly one of the ways to get out there is to hold an FICW Airsoft event?
About the Time Frame - Over here I recall, units portraying 1st Gulf started to appear about 10 years afterward, and yet, Korea, Borneo, Malaya and The Canal Zone are pretty conspicuous by their absence - The Falklands may never gain total acceptance. I believe that this is due to Public exposure - in the 50's & 60's, these conflicts were half a world away, affecting only those who experienced it - TV changed all that.
There are parts of WWII that don't get the exposure they should over here - early War, with the BEF, the Far East and to some extent, the Med - Films change all that (The upcoming BOB in the Pacific should create the same interest with the USMC - just wait out on that one).
TBH FICW was 'someone elses problem' in the public eye, so it didn't get the exposure it warranted.
My two pennorth, hope I haven't bored you
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 18, 2009 14:07:29 GMT -5
Gents:
Great comments all ... Thanks for the opinions from different perspectives.
Mick
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Post by cookie on Aug 22, 2009 13:54:55 GMT -5
I used to do tournament paintball and even attended the Coram Big Game in New Hampshire in 2000. This was way back in the day when I was a young'un. I had a custom built, bottle fed, cross fire with an open bolt action. It was the nicest thing you ever saw. I got massacred when I came over to NH, but hey, it was fun!
I think everyone has made excellent points about the differences between the various hobbies. Paintball is very much a young guys game, where you need to be fit. There is the range of guns and accessories to go with it. The tournaments are always good fun and you get to meet a lot of fun people. It was always very friendly and people went out of their way to speak to one another, then to hurt one another later on...
Reenactingis a very clique based entity. People find it hard to get into and to stick with. It is weighed down with history. History hangs over everything you do in reenacting, and can be used to hack you down by other people who are better informed than yourself. As already mentioned, it is also massively expensive. I once met a guy who reenacted the Imperial Guard from Star Wars. I had a chat with him and a Roman reenactor. When the star wars guy boasted that his kit costed £800 the Roman and I fell about laughing, thinking that guy had it easy!
It is true that reenactors don't advertise themselves. Their websites are always very introverted, the photos are not of the best quality and usually feature tents and weapons displays on flat grass fields - they lack that 'spielberg' touch. People need to go up a gear and put themselves out there, with professional photos, public events, battles and the like. They should also do away with the red faced middle aged guys with Nazi helmets that are too small for them.
I think though that it is unfair to compare reenacting to Paintball & airsoft. They're different beasts entirely.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 22, 2009 16:43:52 GMT -5
Great points made by everyone who commented. Guys, thank you for taking the time to do so. Cookie, you touched upon something interesting. I was involved for a short time with building an Imperial Stormtrooper uniform within the premier Star Wars "costuming club" - 501st Legion: www.501st.com/Marching in the Rose Parade: www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDZNc9bStWE... years ago back when they were just growing as I have always been a die-hard Star Wars fan (the first two movies only). The prices back then were cheap, compared to WWI and II, but the Star Wars costuming groups marketed themselves to the greater public community at various events and have now grown into an bonafide organization with well over 60,000 members. And the costumes are incredible. George Lucas stated that the 501st's authenticity was hands away, better than what they had put together on the set with millions of dollars! Each sub-group is autonomous and maintains a strict adherance to correct authenticity. It's truly incredible what this group has done. Regarding paintball versus military reenacting ... I agree with you about the non-comparison of the two; my beef was that it was sad to see 20th century reenacting with NO marketability and nothing on the Borders shelf compared to six snazzy paintball magazines on the stands with more to come. I beleive what has made 20th century reenacting less marketable has been its serial rejection of the most basic military fundamentals like drill and ceremony coupled with its negligence at public events and rejection toward the general public. Vive la farbesque! |
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Post by cookie on Aug 23, 2009 4:16:14 GMT -5
I think Rachel Evans at Skirmish Magazine is trying to address the problems faced by reenacting, especially 20th century eras. I'm always very impressed with the US & UK Civil war groups, as well as the Roman ones too. Unfortunately so many of the WWI and WWII groups think it is ok to run about on a railway station platform with a top venting submachine gun in an average uniform.
The model example of the 501st Star Wars garrison is the way to go. Admittedly they were instantly recognisable and had that star wars appeal but they marketed themselves and put themselves out there. Whenever you see them they are very professional and have an exact uniformity unheard of in other reenactors.
But like I say. 5-10 with their brains in gear can put together some serious displays. It might take a while and involve spending a bit of money and a sympathetic show organiser but it can be done.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 23, 2009 11:31:14 GMT -5
Just saw SKIRMISH for sale on LHW and will have to purchase it. We don't get it here in Houston ... so I will have to shell out the shekels for the postage.
We have "railway" events here in the U.S. (with all manner of kith and kin attending). I think the last FIG event had a Himmler look-alike attending with a coterie of uniformed NSDAP in tow.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 23, 2009 11:55:34 GMT -5
I recently did a impromptu survey of 30 reenacting group websites spanning the Civil War to Korea/Vietnam. The only ones that really appeared to include members in their group of other ethnic groups or ancestry were the FICW, Korea, and Vietnam groups. Perhaps an understandable thing but curious nontheless.
Doc,
Great post here.
I think there is still an "us versus them" mentality within reenacting here in the U.S. Its still quite palpable. However, this is changing. 5th SF Group (AIRBORNE) out of San Antonio have a French-speaking Vietnamese member and the Vietnam War LHG out of Orange County, California (which has the largest Viet ex-pat community outside of France) has a vibrant membership which is 65% Vietnamese. 3e BCCP will have three american-born Vietnamese out to our first event in October.
Younger Vietnamese are now coming out and taking an interest in their heritage ... and this is a good thing. At the radio plug last week, I spoke with a member of AMERASIAN US and two couples from the Young Vietnamese Professionals of Houston (both groups are second generation) and they said that both the Viet- and U.S.-born children are now taking an active role in remembering their father's and grandfather's role in the Vietnam Wars, 1945-1975.
I told the co-sponsors at our first meeting that young Vietnamese need to "live their heritage" and come out and be part of the reenacting experience, put on the uniforms of both the French and U.S. and tell their stories.
Also --- the tribal communities should do the same as well: Muong, Meo, Nung, Hmong, Montangnard, T'ai, etc. The Communists exterminated large portions of these populations but many survived and made it to Canada, the U.S. and France. In a small town in Texas called Sugarland (where I grew up) we had a Viet family of six and a small group of Hmong, both of which have been successful in opening restaurants in our small town of 3,500 (Sugarland's pop is now about 100,000 and listed as one of the best places to live in the U.S.)
However, these communities have faced a veiled racism ... and we've found it hard to slowly break through and sit down and talk. We've also discovered that many of their veterans have faced an uphill battle, especially here in the U.S. from our own veterans.
I think things are changing though. I beleive were starting to see more Vietnamese come out and this is great.
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