Bataillon Coloniaux de Commandos Parachutiste (BCC

[Legion Etrangere]

We've been working pretty hard over the past month building this impression and we've come up with some interesting research:

BCCP Uniform (Indochina, c. 1949-50)

• Black, two-peice beret with TAP para badge
  
• US Army WWII M43 "duck hunter" camo jacket.
  
• US Army WWII field equipment.
  
• British WWII 'sausage skin' camouflage trousers, or
  
• French M47 trousers.
  
• US Army WWII doublebuckle boots.
  
• French army issue cheiche.
  
• French chapeau de brousse (bush hat).
  

Our thanks to Cookie and Doc for research and information.

This page Updated 12 August 2009.

[Legion Etrangere]

Since Bondroit's book will most likely not be picked up for quite some time - or until Indo Editions reprints another one - this is the information we have on BCCP Uniformity for the French Indochina War.

*** LATEST UPDATE: Bondroit's book seems to be completley out of print, although Indo Editions has extra copies at their warehouse in Paris. All U.S., Canadian and British suppliers are OUT. We have checked with a half dozen locations and cannot find a single copy, though online inventory lists of providers (Amazon, Borders, etc.) show them in stock. There is none! So we will be contacting Indo Editions this week to find a copy! ***

a. 1947-48. Units arriving from mainland France issued with US Airborne reinforced and non-reinforced M42 khaki para trousers, M47 jackets, US M43 field jackets. Some units (4e BCCP) arrive from Dakar with tenue de saut reinforced M47 pants. Headgear: black beret with para badge.

b. 1948-49. Current BCCPs in country ditch most mainland metro uniformity in favor of U.S. Army WWII M43 camouflage sets (top and bottom) with U.S. Army double buckles and jump boots and/or M47 trousers - some with reinforced knees. Some units maintain U.S. M42 khaki para pants - 4e indochinoise compagnies issued U.S. M42 trousers, which may have continued up to summer 1951. Headgear: black beret with para badge. [ Note: Sausage skins issued from stocks of DBSAS units begin making their appearance ].

c. 1949-50. Finished product: full camouflage uniform or US Army camou top with US airborne M42 pants / M47 trousers. Headgear: black beret with para badge. Maroon berets begin issuance in summer 1951 to HQ staff in Hanoi.

This is not definitive but from what we've found, what Cookie has provided us and from what we have gleaned from the internet, its best we've come up with.

We beleive the sausage skins would most likely have come from the DBSAS units (the former French SAS battalions or RCPs) that would have been issued them directly from British stocks (in this case SAS BRIGADE HQ) that would have made their way into use.

Reinforced M47's seen in various photos as well with extra added pockets (reinforced knees and rear ends?) though I could have this mixed up with the airborne tenue ---- ?

Mick

[soldatsoucy1]

Mick is right. Even just to get to this point with the 3e BCCP impression information has taken quite a bit of sleuthing and assistance from Cookie!! For certain. Bondroit's book will no doubt answer many nagging questions regarding uniformity and kit but thus far it seems we are on the trail. Its well worth the effort as the interest in what we are doing is growing within the Vietnamese community!!!!

Doc

[cookie]

Nice work on this Mick and Doc. It is a very frustrating subject to research.

Don't forget though that you can add in a few pieces of Brit P37, such as universal ammo pouches with altered belt loops.
I also have a photo from 1950 showing a BCCP wearing the US M43 camo HBT jacket and some kind of British or French khaki shorts!

Excellent stuff all round!

[Legion Etrangere]

To Cookie and Doc: merci.

To everyone: We hope you don't think we are bogarting the forum!

The reason we have been posting our research efforts on the BCCP's is to give members a head's up on what we have found (and continue to find) online for those who may be interested in doing a BCCP impression, are interested in the BCCP units in Indochina or are just interested.

If you are interested in reenacting FICW - even a non-combat impression - feel free to post your research efforts here!!! You won't be lambasted (like you will be on other forums), we'll help out where we can as most members here pool resources from photo stocks, books, periodicals and current websites that are online. The key here has been teamwork among forum members.

So feel free to post your research efforts ! You won't get any grief ... but you may just get more questions to help out in your research!

Mick

[cookie]

Photo from Jean-Pierre Bernier's 'Il y a 50 Ans Dien Bien Phu'

[Legion Etrangere]

Cookie,

Is that pic of a BCCP unit? I remember that book had some pics leading up to DBP but I have not seen the book for several months when a member brought it out to an event. Interesting photo though. You can see the Vietnamese soldier 3-4 troops down the ranks...

Mick

[cookie]

Its certainly airborne and from 1950-51. You can tell they're airborne from the camo jackets and the CR39 rifle. I would say it was pre 1952 as none of them have nets and bands round their US helmets and they are wearing Brit P37 web belts.

It is definitely not DBP era.

[marsouin]

The pics is from 1950/51 if I remember well and it is the 10e BPCP (Bataillon Parachutiste de Chasseurs a Pied),a metropolitan unit...

[marsouin]

To get back to BCCP;when the 3e BCCP was destroyed on the RC4,all men were equipped with the US M43 HBT jcket & pants sets,HBT hats,US shoes or french M-1917 shoes,US webbing,jungle packs.....
At tha time only the 1er BEP was oufitted completely with camo US jackets & pants....

[Legion Etrangere]

marsouin,

Are you saying the HBT hat, the rounded US style HBT hat issued to troops in the pacific? Would the French bush hat have been used?

Question: After the destruction of 3e BCCP was it reformed as 3e BCCP or as another unit? I am still quite confused on that....


Thanks so much for your photos and information thus far, its a wealth of info, like Cookie's and other people on this forum who are knowledgeable about the war.

[Legion Etrangere]

marsouin,

Do you have a copy of Bondroit's book on the 3e BCCP? I saw that in a pic of several books....

Our BCCP unit is looking for that book but cannot find it anywhere. Prices are running $350-400 USD.

[marsouin]

Nov 21, 2009 9:03:34 GMT -5 Legion Etrangere said:

marsouin,

Are you saying the HBT hat, the rounded US style HBT hat issued to troops in the pacific? Would the French bush hat have been used?

Question: After the destruction of 3e BCCP was it reformed as 3e BCCP or as another unit? I am still quite confused on that....


Thanks so much for your photos and information thus far, its a wealth of info, like Cookie's and other people on this forum who are knowledgeable about the war.

I'll sum up the article about RC4 in the last Nr of Militaria Magazine....This is only about the 3e BCCP....
*Uniform:
Hat:either us hbt hat ww2 or French bush hat
uniform itself: US HBT jacket and pants m-1943
-The 3e CIP (Compagnie Indochinoise Parachutiste) assigned to the 3e BCCP had ww2 US camo m-43 jacket & pants
Shoes: US buckle boots or french m-1917 shoes with gaiters of different patterns (US,UK...)
*Equipment:
Mostly US...
Troopers with rifle have the ammo belt m-1923 (tan or OD color).
troopers with carbine or SMG get the m-1936 pistol belt (tan or OD)
Pouches for SMG mags are either ww2 german models or copies locally made
Pouches for carbine mags are locally made (leather)
FM (fusil mitrailleur/ie FM-24/29) mags are carried in side bags or breast pockets of the HBT jacket.
Pistols are carried in US belt holster or locally made ones
Suspenders are m-1936 pattern ww2 as well as canteen & covers.
Packs: a majority of jungle packs but m-1936 US bag,M-1928 haversack as well (Anyway the packs will be left in a house at That Khe and the paras will go to battle with the strict minimum)
-Some WW2 US rangers assault vests were used by the battalion at the beginning of its stay in Indochina.
Some US ww2 jungle first aid pouches were also used (like at hte 1er BEP)
*Weapons:
MAS36CR39
Snipers: german gewehr 43 rifle with scope
SMG:more than 90% are french PM 38 the rest are german MP-40 (that is less than 10%)
FM: Model 24-29
Pistol: german p-08 or personal choice...
Cadres:officers or senior NCOs get the USM1A1 (no USM1)
Mortars: model Us or French-Brandt- 60 & 81 mm
Grenade launchers:german and then french model-50 mm.
MG: Browning M.30 with tripod
Handgrenades: french OF37 & DF37
Knives:USM3
Tools:m-43 us shovel per squad (section) and machettes....

[marsouin]

Addendas: of course USM1A1 is carbine.
The 3e BCCP was actually at the end of its "tour" in Indochina.It was scheduled to go back to France on October 15th 1950.It will be in alert status shortly after an operation in Laos and then dropped on That Khe on October 08th
The bataillon was then reformed on 1st February 1952 (2nd stay in Indochina till 31st August 1953) as the 3e BPC (Bataillon de Parachutistes Coloniaux).
Bondroit's books is sold by the publisher:
www.indoeditions.com/index.php?page=1.php
Price is Euros 60.00 + mail....

[Legion Etrangere]

MP40's.

I can see from the photos I have viewed thus far from the Bondroit book that the MP40's were one of the main battle weapons (NCOs I assume). Does anyone know HOW prevalent this weapon was used? When was it phased out? My assumption in on the arrival of the MAT around '50....

[marsouin]

The main SMG used unitll the issue of MAT49 from 1950 on were : Sten,MAS38,MP40,Thompson...
For GCMA : Grease gun....

[Legion Etrangere]

I have yet to see a MAS38 this side of the pond ... ever. I heard Robert Landies the big Class III auto dealer in Illinois had one and the going price was about $35k USD.

[lirelou]

Reference the MP-40s. From memory of Boindroit's book, the battalion was reponsible for scrounging up its own armament within the French system prior to movement. The CO/OC of the 3rd BCCP managed to find a warehouse of German MP-40s, and taht is what the battalion deployed with.

Reference the comment on black berets. I assume that these were worn by "Choc" units, as that was their headgear. The black beret was also favored by the Commandos of North Vietnam. There was an interim when the 8th BPC became the 8th Choc Para Battalion before reverting to its old designation. (It was supposed to operate in support of the GCMA) One wonders if they switched to Black berets during the interim.

Reference the 10th BPCP and 10th BPC. These were separate units. The first replaced the 2nd Bn, 1st RCP (chasseurs paras) in 1950. Then, on 3 January 1953 the 10th Colonial Paras arrived in Indochina under Brechignac. However, within a week the unit was redesignated the 2nd Bn, 1st RCP to keep the colors of the premier Metro Para unit in theatre.

[Legion Etrangere]

lirelou,

Welcome to our forum.

I read your posts and would like to know your military background if that is not too personal a question to ask. The information you posted was phenominal.

A large majority of us on the forum are FICW reenactors and we try to research the uniforms, weapons and history of these units.

Many thanks for your posts!

Regards
Mick

[Legion Etrangere]

Reference the MP-40s. From memory of Boindroit's book, the battalion was reponsible for scrounging up its own armament within the French system prior to movement. The CO/OC of the 3rd BCCP managed to find a warehouse of German MP-40s, and taht is what the battalion deployed with.

We saw the pics of 3e BCCP personnel using the MP40 (along with the the Gewehr 43 (sniper) and a Bren I think), but never knew *where* they had been issued from. I read somewhere that the 9mm did not chamber correctly (intended for stens?)

[lirelou]

Mick, enlisted in US Army (Air Defense) in 1962, reenlisted for Special Forces in 1965, served a year in the old 6th SF Group, then went to Officer Candidate School to become a tank/cavalry officer. Spent another 15 months in Special Forces (5th SFG, Vietnam), then served in 1st Armored and 1st Cavalry division before going off to serve in the Puerto Rico National Guard (Infantry bn) and later returning to active duty with Special Forces, serving at Fort Bragg, small trips to Europe, and then mostly Latin America until my retirement in '89. Went to work for JSOC as a civilian after that, then pulled tours in Mexico City, Panama, Puerto Rico, and Korea. Retired from civil service in 2007. I speak a poor Vietnamese, once spoke near perfect French, and continue to study Vietnamese history, mostly in English and French, where, frankly, the materials are better anyway. (rewriting history to fit past events and put one's dynasty in the best light is a Vietnamese tradition going back well before Minh Mang.)

[Legion Etrangere]

Much appreciated for bio sir.

Our AFCWA Senior Military Advisor Bob van de Grift, was in Vietnam, 69-70; his bio is on our website here:

www.alliedcoldwarvets.com/AFCWA_officers.html

Thank you for the info; and we glad to have you on board the forum.

Maybe if your calendar allows you could make it down next year for the 3rd Annual Viet Vet Reunion in Houston in Little Saigon? We could host you and your wife.

We had nearly 20K Vietnamese show up with several thousand ARVN and US vets. A handful of French Indochina veterans came up to our weapons display table.

Mick

[Legion Etrangere]

The CO/OC of the 3rd BCCP managed to find a warehouse of German MP-40s, and taht is what the battalion deployed with.

Would this weapon have remained the primary section weapon for the BCCP or was it used until all the correct ammo had been used?

[marsouin]

It was used as primary section weapon (and for the story, the MP-40 used as well ammo which was too powerful for that kind of weapons (9 mm Sten)-This happened in Legion Etrangere units-...)....

[6ebcp]

The Sten could fire German 9mm and use German mags, but the MP40 couldn't fire British 9mm and use British Sten mags.

Because 9mm Parabellum is traditionally loaded " hotter" and designed for use specifically in submachine guns. During the last part of WWII, Germany was running out of basic components – lead, for example. They started using ‘sintered’ (compressed or MIM) mild steel bullets in 9mm Parabellum ammo. Those bullets were lighter than the standard lead core bullets. In order to produce the standard pressure, the charges were adjusted (jacked up) to make the guns work. So the lighter bullet going faster was thought of as ‘hotter’. It was the same pressure as the regular lead core ammo. Which is somewhat higher than the ammo loaded in the US.

Some US munitions makers started manufacturing 9mm ‘Lugar’ ammo (don’t know why they changed the name, but possibly for post war marketing) for the British Army to use in Sten's. US munitions makers seem to be a conservative bunch and the pressure levels were keep at minimal ranges, to not blow up anything. The result being the ammo would not correctly work the Sten gun, it would not always move the bolt far enough to the rear to engage the sear when the trigger was released. This caused the Sten guns to continue to fire until the magazine was empty. This in turn caused the British Army to mark the ammo “Not for submachine gun use”. This information trickled back to the US but was garbled into the myth ‘submachine gun ammo’ was more powerful and would destroy American handguns.

Danny

[cookie]

Just for the record German WWII manufactured casings for 9mm parabellum ammo were made from lacquered steel and not brass. Other than that the ballistic qualities of these and allied brass 9mm were negligable. Certainly not causing rounds not to load properly - both were of the same size and shape - the Mp38/40/41's were first designed and used, pre WWII on brass cased ammo, as Germany had no shortage of it. So there should not have been any issues with either type after the war.

[Legion Etrangere]

cookie,

Just read your post here.

Question: would the lacquered casing e x p a n d the brass casing as its expended? Someone on here many moons ago mentioned that (I beleive it was a short-lived debate on 9mm fouling in the breech). I remember someone in my old military unit told me that "some 9mm is equal to all 9mm."

Did that make any sense? ;D


Muchas gras,
Mick

[cookie]

Mick,

The only effect that the lacquer had on the barrels of the machine pistols was to speed up their corrosion and shorten their lives - but again this was neglible to the effective life of the weapon anyway. We're talking years of constant use in harsh enviorments anyway.

The MP41 was designed in exactly the same way as the MP38/40 and was intended, initially at least, for commercial export to other nations such as Portugal, China etc. The Germans would not have made weapons that chambered their own wartime economy steel rounds and none others. There were no differences to the rounds other than their appearance.

From doing archaeological digs in Normandie with other members of TFH we found German positions scattered with both wartime German 9mm and pre war dated British 9mm captured at Dunkirk. All used by Germans in German weapons.

No differences!

[Legion Etrangere]

Just read this:

From doing archaeological digs in Normandie with other members of TFH we found German positions scattered with both wartime German 9mm and pre war dated British 9mm captured at Dunkirk. All used by Germans in German weapons.

Obviously with the mixture, there would not have been any jams or at least nothing major that would have negated the use of both.

Fascinating Cookie, simply fascinating.

Mick

[6ebcp]

Hello!

Would be interested to see an example pre-war dated british made 9mm!

Danny