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Post by cookie on Jun 3, 2009 10:30:27 GMT -5
This is the subject of my latest photo project; the fighting retreat from the outpost at Tu Le in the Northern highlands of Vietnam, October 1952. Marcel Bigeard's 6e BPC again!
Does anyone know of any books or websites with references or photos of this battle? I already own Bigeards 'Ma Guerre d'Indochine' which contains many excellent photos of the battle, but you can never have enough!
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Post by lt13demi on Jun 3, 2009 12:05:39 GMT -5
I was just reading about this again, yesterday while I at the Dr's office for my ailing mom! I was speculating on the holding action of Sgt-Chef Peyrol's T'ai irregulars at Muong-Chen, and it's striking similiarties to the movie "La Section 317e"... Makes you wonder if this was the basis for that film?  ? Can't wait to see the pics!!!!!!!!! Renault |
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Post by cookie on Jun 3, 2009 13:24:57 GMT -5
I'm reading Bernard Fall's 'Street Without Joy' which has good sections on the battle at Tu Le, the GCMA's and the irregular T'ai partisan units. Most of those battles could easily be described as 'epic'. Just the efforts the men on both sides went to to manouvre and survive in the jungles.     Captain Tourret  Marcel Bigeard  So far my research into the 6e BPC at Tu Le shows that the battalion was equipped with US camo WWII jackets (P44 and M43) and British Windproof trousers, with a mixture of US WWII and French Mle 50 webbing. What I am wondering is if anyone has any pictures of men wearing Mle 47 trousers or US green HBT trousers. I have one picture of a sergeant wearing US camo trousers but no others. |
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Post by lt13demi on Jun 3, 2009 19:17:51 GMT -5
That's funny Cookie, the reading I was alluding to from yesterday was from my copy of "Rue Sans Joie"!
That top pic is the "classic" Tu Le photo!!!!!!!
To describe those engagements as epic is quite the understatement!!!!! Bordering on the kind of stories that legends are made of. One can't help to think of the 100's of such engagements all over Indochina without a messenger to tell their tale. Here in Texas there is an old proverb, "Thermopolyae (sic) had her messenger of defeat, the Alamo had none."
Renault
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Post by cookie on Jun 4, 2009 5:23:34 GMT -5
Quite true Renault,
Tu Le is certainly a battle that stands out among many. I think only because the men survived to tell it, unlike so many of the border forts that just went quiet one day...
I am toying with the idea of doing a Legion para photoshoot, possibly from Lang Son (Op 'Hirondelle') or one of the many other battles of '52 and '53. This being simply due to the bigger range of gear that the men wore. The 6e BPC all wore the US camo jacket/Brit windproof trouser combination, whereas the legion BEP's wore a mixture of camo, windproof, US HBT's, Mle 47 trousers etc. There so is much research to do!
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Jun 9, 2009 10:07:02 GMT -5
Cookie,
The top Vietnamese para in the Tu Le retreat photos ... is he wearing a standard M-1 helmet or that is a locally made reconstruction chinstrap thats been tacked inside the helmet?
/martini/
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Post by cookie on Jun 14, 2009 14:16:45 GMT -5
I think it is a true M1C with 'A' frames, but can't tell for sure! What is interesting is that he is wearing both his chin strap AND chin cup - this is not usual when off the DZ.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Jun 15, 2009 10:13:03 GMT -5
Interesting...
I've seen that in several pics and thought it was odd, but knowing that VM mortars and ARTY were certainly in use with an unsecured DZ [ or the actual DZ was known prior to emplaning to battle - due to good intelligence gathering on Giap's behalf ] I can see the need to remain under the tin hat, sans the John Wayne look.
/martini/
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Jun 15, 2009 10:15:25 GMT -5
One can't help to think of the 100's of such engagements all over Indochina without a messenger to tell their tale
Mon Lt,
Very true.
The hundreds and hundreds of outposts in Laos, Cambodia and Indochina, held by only a handful of ANV, Legion, French, French Union or loyal forces ... overrun in an 'urrah' human wave assault ... is probably known only to God.
/martini/
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Post by marsouin on Nov 20, 2009 7:22:13 GMT -5
Cookie, The top Vietnamese para in the Tu Le retreat photos ... is he wearing a standard M-1 helmet or that is a locally made reconstruction chinstrap thats been tacked inside the helmet? /martini/ Often is the airborne liner worn with a classic infantry M-1 shell.... |
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Post by marsouin on Nov 20, 2009 7:39:06 GMT -5
I'm reading Bernard Fall's 'Street Without Joy' which has good sections on the battle at Tu Le, the GCMA's and the irregular T'ai partisan units. Most of those battles could easily be described as 'epic'. Just the efforts the men on both sides went to to manouvre and survive in the jungles. Captain Tourret Marcel Bigeard So far my research into the 6e BPC at Tu Le shows that the battalion was equipped with US camo WWII jackets (P44 and M43) and British Windproof trousers, with a mixture of US WWII and French Mle 50 webbing. What I am wondering is if anyone has any pictures of men wearing Mle 47 trousers or US green HBT trousers. I have one picture of a sergeant wearing US camo trousers but no others. Hello Cookie, Here is a pic of the 6e BPC prearing to board planes for TU-Lê:  Note that the 1st trooper is wearing what looks like a tenue M-47:  And the 3rd one is wearing OD HBT trousers:  Actually the most used garments were the camo USMC jacket with the windproof trousers... Some more pics... The post:  Exhausted vietnamese troopers-Section Lt De Wilde:   |
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Post by cookie on Nov 20, 2009 10:26:40 GMT -5
Nice! Very much appreciated!
I have been searching everywhere for more photos of the Tu Le battle and 6e BPC's preparations. I was beginning to get worried as original and good quality repro windproofs are quite expensive. Doing US and French Infatry I already have plenty of HBT's and Mle 47 clothing.
I assumed though that the unit was mainly issued with the US army M43 camo jackets with some USMC P44 and '4th pattern raider' jackets as well. This I got from examining photos of the men in Bigeards book 'Ma guerre d'indochine'. It appears the enlisted guys are wearing M43 camo and the NCO's and officers the USMC ones.
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6ebcp
Dans le théâtre de la guerre
"tireurs de pr?cision"
Posts: 76
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Post by 6ebcp on Dec 2, 2009 18:49:22 GMT -5
Is there any evidence of any brit webbing still in use like P44 waterbottle carriers and P37 small packs?
Danny
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Post by marsouin on Dec 2, 2009 20:32:53 GMT -5
it is possible that the pattern 44 and 37 waterbottle were used along with US ones...And that small or large packs were used too but I don't have photographic evidence....
On all the pics available so far,there is a predominance of french TAP m-1950 and US gear...
Need to dig the topic....
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Post by cookie on Dec 3, 2009 6:39:19 GMT -5
Danny, The only Brit webbing in evidence as being used by the 6e BPC at Tu Le is the P44 water bottle and cover. There are two photos that I know of that show these in use: In this first photo look at the water bottle being carried by the man on the far left. I've magnified it and it is a P44 bottle and carrier. You can see from the carrier; the wire hanger is at the top of a piece of webbing joining it to the bottle carrier. The wire hanger is much closer to the bottle on a US M10. The inner of the two men standing on the left is drinking from a P44 water bottle. It has the wide spout and large metal cap of the P44 and also does not feature the ridge around the centre of a US M10.  I've not found any other photos showing other P44 or P37 webbing in use at Tu Le. Interestingely enough there is a photo of an FM gunner from 6e BPC in the fighting at Ban Yen Nhan in Dec 1952. He is wearing a modified P37 unversal ammo pouch. For the purposes of my photoshoot I'm not using any P37 and I'm only using a couple of P44 bottles and covers. |
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Post by cookie on Dec 3, 2009 6:42:32 GMT -5
Further to the above I've not seen any photos from Tu Le showing the French Mle 51 water bottle in use (the tinned one with the cork stopper). Only P44 and US M10 (in mounted and dismounted carriers).
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6ebcp
Dans le théâtre de la guerre
"tireurs de pr?cision"
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Post by 6ebcp on Dec 3, 2009 13:15:59 GMT -5
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Post by marsouin on Dec 3, 2009 14:27:21 GMT -5
Try to find the TAP pouch mle 1950 for FM magazines (I'll try to post a pic later on)...A british pouch pattern 1937 for drivers was used troughout the war for the FM cleaning kit....
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6ebcp
Dans le théâtre de la guerre
"tireurs de pr?cision"
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Post by 6ebcp on Dec 3, 2009 15:08:19 GMT -5
Cheers for that ;D Will have to see if there is any evidence of the pouch in use at Tu Le! If it was in use only a few months later by the same unit there is a possibility it was there also. But as Cookie put and I agree a photo would confirm it 100% ;D Also finding the cleaning kit  Danny |
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Post by cookie on Dec 3, 2009 15:54:00 GMT -5
Danny, don't put two water bottles on your belt, this was not done by French forces - it is a US Vietnam war thing. French troops made do with one bottle.
1) the first ebay pic is of a Mle 35 musette (WWII infantry). Possibly used in Indo but I shouldn't think so.
2) & 4) are of Musette TTA Mle 50 infantry packs. They were used in Indochina from around 1952 onwards by infantry and paras. One is seen on the back of a para at Tu Le walking up a mountain. The paras wore it as a backpack (there are various ways of configuring the strap).
3) Is a 1950's issue TTA FM magazine bag. This was used in Suez 1956 and Algeria, not Indochina.
The P37 pouch that was on the belt of an FM gunner was a universal pouch, I couldn't tell if it was a standard one which had been modified or an MT pouch. I don't think it matters (you try re stitching the loop on the back - its a nightmare - trust me)
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6ebcp
Dans le théâtre de la guerre
"tireurs de pr?cision"
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Post by 6ebcp on Dec 3, 2009 18:13:05 GMT -5
Cheers once again Cookie you have been a life saver!
Shall wait and see any further research on the MT Pouch as I know you've already said no 37 Ptn at the shoot.
Danny - 12 Days till FM day!
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Post by lirelou on Dec 7, 2009 21:46:58 GMT -5
Considering that half the battalion was Vietnamese, I presume that the 6th CIP, later 3rd Cie, came in wearing whatever they had on 28 July 1952 when they were the 7th CIP. Likewise, the 26th CIP, later 4th Cie, should have drawn their initial issue at CITAPI's BAPN (Base Aeroporte Nord), but a good 30% of the unit would have been veterans of previous CIPs. My experience with the Vietnamese airborne NCOs and Officers is that they held on to old issue clothing items, and often had fascimile pattern 49-54 para smocks made by their tailors. The French red beret (mine is a souvenir 'Plein Ciel' beret from the 11th Company of the 6th RPIMa in 1986) is a redder "wine" color than either the British or Canadian (Dorothea Knitting Mills) Airborne berets. The ARVN airborne took theirs a shade of red brighter after the First Indo War.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Dec 7, 2009 22:31:50 GMT -5
RE: The Coloniale Para beret. I am assuming its a "bordeaux" color, much lighter than the maroon, but not "Guardian Angels red".
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6ebcp
Dans le théâtre de la guerre
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Post by 6ebcp on Dec 8, 2009 22:02:14 GMT -5
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Post by marsouin on Dec 9, 2009 5:32:05 GMT -5
The 1st pic shows the 1er BEP during operation near Hoa Binh on the RC6 January 1952.
The 2nd pic shows either the I/2e REI or II & III/13e DBLE during operation "Artois" in the area Phuc Yen,Thaï Binh & Bui-Chu,Delta tonkinois,november 1953.
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Post by soldatsoucy1 on Dec 9, 2009 16:38:26 GMT -5
Mick.....Look at the second picture below posted by Marsouin...notice the position of the entrenching tool slung over the belt and not in a carrier. Ive noticed a few of these pics where the e tool is either carried slung over the suspenders by the blade or on the belt. It would sure make getting to it easier when you needed it.
John
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Dec 9, 2009 16:53:10 GMT -5
Affirmative.
I saw that.
I even saw the Legionnaire wearing British WWII P37 khaki web pouches and belt!
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Post by soldatsoucy1 on Dec 9, 2009 17:50:42 GMT -5
I think one guy is wearing an M51 French helmet with the net and band and the other is wearing a US M1 or M1C with a net
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Post by cookie on Dec 11, 2009 9:45:01 GMT -5
Erwan Bergot states the 2nd picture is of the 11e Compagnie of the 6e BPC on 22nd december 1952 fighting in and around the village of Co Le (Ban Yen Nhan operation). There is a second photo from the left, behind the loader. Both helmets are US M1.
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6ebcp
Dans le théâtre de la guerre
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Post by 6ebcp on Dec 11, 2009 12:07:08 GMT -5
Excellent stuff cheers for that  Danny |
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What he has next to the pouch is the issue cleaning / ram rod in its sleeve.