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Post by Kenneth on Jun 10, 2015 13:52:36 GMT -5
I just picked up the boots. Couldn't wait until the weekend. They were in remarkable condition considering the age, almost like new. The uppers seem to have had no wear at all, yet the soles appear to have been resoled. Even more pleasing was the leather. It was not stiff at all but rather soft and flexible and appears never having been treated with anything. I was able to examine a few pairs a few years ago and they were all stiff (and none in my size), though otherwise in the same virtually unworn condition. They did have variations on the buckle arrangement around the top, though. As it happens, I know the seller where I got these boots. But because I picked them up at his store, I had to pay sales tax but no shipping.
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Post by lew on Jun 10, 2015 18:01:30 GMT -5
Excellent.
Make sure to get some sort of leather dressing on them before they start flexing while being worn. The first type Mle. 52 boot had a single strap (you'll never see one of these as they were quickly replaced), the second type has two riveted straps, and the third two straps formed from one piece of leather which is sewn to the ankle piece.
How can you tell they've been resoled?
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Post by Kenneth on Jun 11, 2015 5:32:11 GMT -5
It's just a guess about them being resoled but the marks from the machine around the edges are still obvious and the sole itself shows not wear whatsoever. But the boots are obviously at least fifty years old and have all the signs of long storage, although they are not creased or crushed from being in the bottom of a box all that time. They must be the third type from your description. Also, they're not all dried out, either. The only shortcoming is how they're "slick" on the inside and allow your foot to move around a little. That was true on a pair of, I think, Mle. 45 hobnailed ankle boots, also. That will probably disappear over time. I'll make sure to treat them with oil. Too bad I don't have any issue grease for authenticity's sake.
It always amazes me that old things like that still turn up in virtually new condition, though hardly common. I've even seen a set of WWII army HBT fatigues that still had all the little tags straight from the factory. At least I think it was genuine.
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Post by lew on Jun 11, 2015 19:02:30 GMT -5
The issued French grease/oil was nothing special. Don't sweat it. I'm guessing your boots were never issued by the sound of it, which is typical, since so many sat in storage for decades. Lace the boots up tight and they won't slip around. The slick insole won't be a problem if the boots are the right size. No, that won't disappear over time. Try different thicknesses of socks to obtain the best fit. I wear lightweight socks without a problem. I like Pecard's since it is a grease and won't run everywhere like an oil would.
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Post by Kenneth on Jun 12, 2015 5:38:40 GMT -5
Thanks for all the advice, both about the boots as well as Panzerfaust. I did one application of oil last evening and it really soaked it in and made them dark brown, which is not a problem. I've not used of Pecard's, though I've heard of it as well as a couple of other brands. The oil that I use, as I mentioned, is Obernauf's. I also use their "LP" boot preservative, which is great for boat shoes but it seems to attract grit on boots. The place where I got the boots, by the way, had a box of US Army shoe dubbing. Never knew they ever issued it.
I have received my order from Chan yet but I'm not expecting it for another week at least. I'm afraid that my discovery of this forum has increased my interest in French army things, not that it needed any encouragement. And that leads to spending my wife's money.
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Post by craigtx on Jun 12, 2015 10:03:43 GMT -5
It just gets worse... You've entered a money pit...
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Post by lew on Jun 12, 2015 10:14:45 GMT -5
You are most welcome. I forgot that you mentioned Obernauf's earlier; continue using that. The boots will darken considerably. When looking through period photos- Algeria, specifically- it's best not to assume that boots have been blackened since the oiled brown boots will come close to black with continued oil application and UV exposure. In any case, few units maintained black boots as SOP throughout the war, 3e RPC/RPIMa being a prime example.
I believe the US-issued dubbin was WW2-era for the M41 and M43 rough-out shoes and boots. Patience on shipping from the Orient. I've had some shipments in a week and others a month.
The wars in Indochine et Algérie are a field day for collectors, historians, counterinsurgency nerds, and living history enthusiasts. Few other conflicts are so involved and intricate on so many levels, from equipment to socio- and geopolitical effects.
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Post by lew on Jun 12, 2015 10:16:10 GMT -5
It just gets worse... You've entered a money pit... I maintain a spreadsheet with all of the French crap I've bought. I've totaled subdivisions thereof, but I'm terrified to see the grand total.
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Post by Kenneth on Jun 12, 2015 10:55:21 GMT -5
I've never been a collector. I just accumulate stuff. A collector tries to acquire all possible variations is something or things associated with something in particular. But someone like me just becomes fascinated by something and wants to learn more about it from a first-hand user's perspective, not that I'll ever come that close to really knowing about, say, a French parachutist's uniform without jumping out of an airplane, even if it isn't a French aircraft. But at least I can discover what it's like to walk ten miles in a pair of jump boots. The Indians said you only had to walk a mile in a man's moccasins or something like that. Anyway, I've about satiated myself with British Commonwealth stuff in spite of the fact the things are introduced faster than I can learn about them. Sometimes I have to skip generations just to keep up! Time to learn a little French now, n'est-ce pas?
As far as the cost goes, those with lots of money buy tanks. I'd be happy with a Chenillette. But the closest I've been is seeing one in person and I can't even say that about a Universal Carrier.
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Post by hvd5677 on Jun 12, 2015 15:15:10 GMT -5
I fit into the same category as Kenneth does (i.e. accumulator vs collector) seeking some first hand appreciation of the soldier's experience. I became interested in this area about 3 years ago and began a few purchases--got sidetracked by cancer that year--and have begun accumulating in earnest only a couple of months ago when I joined this group.
I can only compare gathering FIC stuff to WWI and USCW (more distantly). Because of the wide variety of stuff used in the Indochina War and the relatively wide availability of applicable original and repro items at a decent cost (compared to WWI and Civil War), Im a bit like a kid in candy shop. Even though I have been only spending $20-$60 at a pop, the investment creeps up.
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Post by lew on Jun 12, 2015 16:53:09 GMT -5
To each their own, and that's no problemo. I fell into the authentic CW trap awhile back. My cousin's still do it, but I find conventional warfare pretty boring. Indo's cheaper and counterinsurgency is far more involved and entertaining.
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Post by craigtx on Jun 13, 2015 20:33:51 GMT -5
That's alright y'all Steve and I will take up the slack...
I'm still mullin' over tryin' to contact the WWII parachute demonstration folks in OK to see if I can talk them into lettin' me come take their course Indo style...
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Post by lew on Jun 14, 2015 8:21:14 GMT -5
Ooh. That sounds fun.
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Post by craigtx on Jun 14, 2015 8:36:55 GMT -5
Doesn't it just...
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Post by Étienne on Jun 14, 2015 19:54:24 GMT -5
The windproofs from Panzerfaust1943 (PF43) and from WPG are somewhat different from each other, and are not sourced from the same producer. Supposedly, WPG is planning another run of windproofs "sometime soon." From what member Lew has previously stated, PF43 does a really nice job, and I like his colors better. However, WPG was less expensive. They both are excellent sources to deal with and are really nice people. Regarding sizing, the windproofs were made to be overclothes, as in, over the wearer's regular clothing, so they seem to be oversized. To make it even more complicated (and I can't say from experience that this is the case with the windproofs), sometimes the size would be the wearer's actual size, but the windproof article was larger and meant to be worn over the regular clothing article; as in, if you wear a US size 42 coat, the windproof would be sized for a 42 chest person but would actually measure like 46 inches or so. (Am I even making any sense at this point?) Original Brit windproofs were in the typical British military sizing, like "1" or "2" or "3" or etc. like this: www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com/img/p30392_37765_1401386327.jpg or www.germanmilitaria.com/OtherNations/photos/C097961full.jpgI'd save your money and just find some Belgian windproof trousers and post photos of you wearing them...and just wait for the other forum members' heads to explode!
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Post by Étienne on Jun 14, 2015 20:01:00 GMT -5
OK, that last post was a bit tardy, but...
I would love to do some "historic jumping"! The toughest part is paying for the reproduced chute, as they are expensive. When I was in the US Army (and at Ft. Bragg) in the 1990s, there was a hot-rodded DC-3 that was flown out of Pope AFB that we would jump from on a rare occasion...it sure was cool to be able to have alternative aircraft available to play with. (OK, enough with the trip down memory lane...)
Anyway, it would be cool to do a FIW style jump, and I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem with it as the equipment is pretty much the same!
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Post by Kenneth on Jun 15, 2015 5:36:37 GMT -5
Supposedly the WWII British windproofs were sized to fit over a duffle coat, although I find that hard to believe. I believe they were typically worn over the heavy wool jersey and flannel shirt. Curiously, I can find no actual reference to the camouflage windproof suit in any of my British reference material, meaning manuals and regulations. The "drab" windproof is listed (this is post-war), however, and I had one of them, the complete suit. I think it was actually thinner than the camo version. I have seen photos of the drab (sort of a pale khaki) smock in use but none of the camo one until after the war. I've also read somewhere that some of the WWII drab khaki windproof smocks were issued out during the first Gulf War. That's probably a rumor.
The olive green/olive drab denim battledress suit that was issued during WWII as a working garment after the canvas suit went out of fashion was indeed sized to fit over battle dress and supposedly caused no end of confusion among users. It was apparently more often worn as a summer field uniform in the U.K. Also, British khaki drill garments were issued oversized to allow for shrinkage.
Regarding sizing also, it seems that the first pattern French camouflage uniforms were issued very over-sized. Then during the Algerian war period the current pattern was more normally sized. Then in the 80s, the last of the camouflage jackets (with the snap-closing pockets) were worn on the small size. I'm not sure if that reflects a change in design or availability or simply fashion. The same thing seems to have happened with British combat dress.
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Post by lew on Jun 15, 2015 14:10:54 GMT -5
Steve, you had best watch it. Even the mere suggestion of Belgian Windproofs carries a steep punishment. Maybe you'll just have yer lopped hand off. Nothing too extreme.
Ken, you are correct about the fit. My Type 1 Windproof set is pretty baggy, while the Type 2 is cut a bit closer, and that's how the French wore them. Denison Smocks are supposed to be worn in the same fashion: as an outer garment. Type 2 Windproof sets were far more likely to be tailored to the individual, so one will typically see a full zipper added to the jacket and the trouser pockets rearranged. For what it's worth, the Type 2 was worn up until the end of the Algerian War.
From the mid-60's onward, fashion in the French military dictated closely tailored uniforms for airborne and commando units. Supposedly, it looked more "elite", but what do I know (not much)?
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Post by Étienne on Jun 15, 2015 22:14:09 GMT -5
And don't even get into the correct "French length" for shorts...I've read too many horror stories about squatting down over a map with French soldiers and having to witness the "dangle effect"
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Post by lew on Jun 16, 2015 8:23:06 GMT -5
I draw the line at just above the knee. No shorts in the British tradition, either (Rhodesia being a good example). I'm sure your thighs are glamorous; I don't need the risk of accidental (?) exposure of the jumblies.
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Post by craigtx on Jun 16, 2015 10:33:50 GMT -5
For which we are all grateful...
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Post by Kenneth on Jun 16, 2015 13:30:05 GMT -5
Judging from a few published photos I've seen, it might also be that the last camouflage jump jackets were the last that were on hand and that soldiers wanted them so badly that they wore them even if they were too small, at least in some places. Provided you rolled up the sleeves and could fasten the front, it didn't matter. I've also seen later photos of formations of different French army units in which different units were wearing their issued uniforms in noticeably different fits. The foreign legion went in for closer fitting uniforms while the Chasseur d'Alpin wore theirs in a decidedly baggy fashion, perhaps to match the beret.
When I was in the service, it was common to have fatigues cut down, both the shirt/jacket and the pants. Civilian pants at the time were on the narrow side. Soldiers always complain about the fit of uniforms, among other things. In researching Royal Marine dress regulations, I even ran across a memo that stated that future acquisitions of the Lovat Dress trousers would be narrower in the leg. It's rare to find (50 years on) reference to a change like that.
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Post by lew on Jun 16, 2015 19:29:04 GMT -5
The tighter-fitting uniforms were tailored, and tailleurs were in ample supply in Indo et Algérie, especially the latter, which had a far more regular and stable military presence and infrastructure. Unit traditions and institutional inertia therein were particularly strong in most French units during the period that most concerns us. Witness blackened boots in 3e RPC/3e RPIMa. Other units lacked such drive and impetus. Even the rarer French tenues de saut were made in excess, so sizing was little issue.
The Chasseurs d'Alpin's baggy uniform appearance is derived from their Basque shepherd/mountaineer inspiration where baggy clothes (béret included) were functional protection against snow, cold, and biting wind.
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Post by Kenneth on Jul 13, 2015 6:39:47 GMT -5
I finally received my order for an HBT fatigue shirt last Saturday. You may recall that I actually placed the order on June 1st. His original description, I believe, said it would take three weeks. At the end of about four weeks I e-mailed him and said I hadn't received it. He said he had forgotten to ship it and he immediately refunded the shipping. It was then actually shipped on 7/3 and received on 7/11. The shipment was tracked and I had to sign for it.
The shirt or jacket itself, though, is perfect. He had sent a description of the chest measurement as an aid to selecting the sizing. I measured some of my shirts, none of which measured out to what I expected. But anyway, I ordered an extra-large and it is in fact, an extra-large. So I'd say order your usual size. The shoulders are quite wide and it is full cut. But I'm happy with it and might even order another, given how the price was so reasonable. One is never enough.
The irony here (about the late receipt of the order) is that I had more communication with the seller than with any other I've purchased from and he is the only one who had recommendations. But I'd have to say I can also recommend him, too.
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Post by lew on Jul 13, 2015 8:14:19 GMT -5
For being a non-native English speaker, his communications are excellent, not to mention prompt. I've been pestering him a lot lately with this 47/52 group buy and a couple of other things, so that may be why your order shipped late.
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savoy6
Dans le théâtre de la guerre
Posts: 83
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Post by savoy6 on Sept 15, 2015 7:28:12 GMT -5
"I'd save your money and just find some Belgian windproof trousers and post photos of you wearing them...and just wait for the other forum members' heads to explode! "
lol..i just bought a set of those...
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Post by lew on Sept 15, 2015 9:03:58 GMT -5
I've got my eye on you.
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Post by Étienne on Sept 16, 2015 21:00:42 GMT -5
Belgian windproofs are pretty darn cool...y'all know you wanna start a Belgian Congo unit!
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Post by lew on Sept 17, 2015 8:03:53 GMT -5
Bingo. In my case, I'd be tempted to get both an ABL SAFN-49 and a correct FAL. Must... resist...
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Post by Étienne on Sept 17, 2015 11:46:21 GMT -5
I hear ya on that one...just started working on building an early-ish FAL from a parts kit...ugh...
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