|
Post by earlymb on May 6, 2018 8:23:44 GMT -5
Hello all,
I just registered on this forum and this will be my first post. I'm not new to collecting and re-enactment but French post-war is on both accounts new to me. I've always had an interest in Lizard-pattern (based) camouflage just because I think it's the best looking pattern out there but till now didn't do much with it, other than getting a zeltbahn because it was very cheap.
The reason I registered is that a friend gave me a very nice and original TAP jacket Modéle 1947/56 in my size, and now I want to complete a basic impression around it. He might have the accompaning trousers too. I don't plan on doing real re-enactment but I would like to have a basic but complete set of uniform & equipment in my size.
I'm doing some research now in the (to me) completely new world of French post-war webbing, and the Algerian war. I've dug up some French buckle boots I've had in a box for years (although they don't exactly match any of the 3 standard types I've come across) so if my friend finds those trousers I should have a good start.
I have loads of WW2-era US and British stuff (mainly equipment) to fall back on, but can anyone point me to a list or website that lists the French equipment by name, description and pictures?
|
|
|
New guy
May 6, 2018 10:45:27 GMT -5
Post by craigtx on May 6, 2018 10:45:27 GMT -5
Howdy earlymb! Bienvenue!
Nice of ya to join us down the rabbit hole. Peruse the forum, there's a lot of information in here. Ask questions, we've got some very knowledgeable folk here. In general the first rule of Indochine is that there are no rules. You'll see photos of the damnedest things. There's a big mismash of kit depending on which part of the war you're looking at.
As for a list of equipment... You'll see a lot of US, UK, and some German kit, as well as French. A lot will depend o whether you're interested in infantry, or paras; Legion or colonial.
Before ya go hog wild with books etc. There's a coupla general histories you'll want to read. Hell In Small Place, and Street Without Joy by Bernard Fall. There are many other good tomes, but these two will give you a good start.
|
|
|
New guy
May 6, 2018 11:42:53 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on May 6, 2018 11:42:53 GMT -5
In general the first rule of Indochine is that there are no rules. You'll see photos of the damnedest things. There's a big mismash of kit depending on which part of the war you're looking at. As for a list of equipment... You'll see a lot of US, UK, and some German kit, as well as French. I have been re-enacting 'Netherlands East-Indies 1945-1950' for a few years now, and it's the exact same thing there! A mix of British, Commonwealth, American and even German equipment, weapons and tropical clothing so nothing new there. It's the French kit I have to familiarize myself with. Thanks for the tips on the books, I'll look around for them at shows. For now I am leaning towards Legion para's in Algeria, as I have heard there were a number of Dutchmen involved there. One of the things that will require some study.
|
|
|
New guy
May 6, 2018 18:01:57 GMT -5
Post by craigtx on May 6, 2018 18:01:57 GMT -5
In which case, you'll want to get:
Paras Francais Algerie 1954 1962 By Patrice Pivetta & Eric Adam
La Legion Etrangere en Algerie 1954 - 1962 by Raymond Guyader
Both are in French unfortunately, but the photos are great.
|
|
|
Post by earlymb on May 7, 2018 4:55:44 GMT -5
Thanks; I do speak some French and although it's very rusty I should be able to manage.
|
|
|
Post by earlymb on May 7, 2018 5:57:25 GMT -5
What started this...
|
|
|
New guy
May 9, 2018 12:15:01 GMT -5
Post by lew on May 9, 2018 12:15:01 GMT -5
With the TAP 47/56 jacket and the boots you posted (both of which look great), pick up some French TAP 50 web gear to round it out. British gear was scarce to non-existent during the Algerian War, US gear was mostly relegated to line and secondary units, and French industry was well caught up. The latter explains why surplus from this era is so easily attainable. If you can't find suitable original trousers (ebay.fr or ebay.com) for a reasonable sum, Doursoux makes great copies. A beret* and a casquette Bigeard would take care of headgear.
*Green: Foreign Legion (chapeau de brousse instead of the Bigeard cap), Green, right side fold: Commandos de Marine, red: Colonial paras, blue: Metropolitan paras (prior to Sept. 1957, red after), black: Commandos de l'Air. If you settle on a Commandos de Chasse impression, there are a few more varieties.
For the aforementioned books, I'd get the Indochina counterparts just because they're very interesting, and might help to educate.
As for Dutch Legionnaires, I doubt there were many at the time. Mostly Germans (almost half), Czechs, Poles, Hungarians, Yugoslavs, Spaniards, some Finns, and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. Non-Francophone Northwestern Europe, as well as North America have typically been scarce in the Legion.
|
|
|
New guy
May 9, 2018 14:11:42 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on May 9, 2018 14:11:42 GMT -5
Thanks! I got this jacket from a friend and he might have the pants that came with it somewhere. Since the jacket is my size I have some hope the trousers will fit too if he finds them. Since this primarily is for collecting and not re-enactment I prefer original over reproductions right now. I do have a Lizard Zeltbahn in very good condition, but the date stamp is unreadable unfortunately. It is the standard 'dense' variant (I have been reading up ). I am looking into French Mle.50-ish TAP webbing now. I will go to the War & Peace Revival show at Beltring, UK coming July and my hope is I will find some over there. I remember seeing loads of French stuff there, but I never paid any attention to it till now. My aim is to have the correct (basic) equipment for a Legion para in Algeria 1958-1960. So far I think I need the following (any corrections or suggestions greatly appreciated): - Mle.50/53 belt with press button and 2nd type buckle; - Mle.50 suspenders; - a pair of ammo pouches... Either modified US M1 Carbine pouches, Mle.49(?) pouches for the MAS49 or the MAT49; - Mle.51 bidon with brown or black cap in a Mle.52 carrier with 2 snaps; - M53 bandage pouch marked 11/48; - M51/56 TAP helmet (still looking for details on these... or would a US M1 do too?) - Mle.49 chapeau de brousse, either tan or green. - Green beret (3-piece?) with insignia; - Optional: a pair of Palladium or Mil-Tec pataugas... Only OD or is khaki correct too? I know the Bigeard cap in Lizard-pattern is correct but I really don't like the look of them so I prefer an Mle.49 hat. If I find a nice Bigeard for a good price I will take it home though. Speaking of reproductions, I saw What Price Glory has a few French items too like an M49 hat. Any reports on quality? I found a few of the books suggested to me are available locally but they're not cheap so I'll need to save up a bit first.
|
|
|
New guy
May 10, 2018 12:31:28 GMT -5
Post by lew on May 10, 2018 12:31:28 GMT -5
Your list looks good. For that time frame, to be as representative as possible, I would go with a Mle. 52 canteen (black cap would be period-correct, plus, the Mle. 52 a lot cheaper and better designed). An M1 helmet with any of the various para suspension systems would work. Tap Mle. 56 helmets are not the easiest to find. Green chapeaus de brousse would have dominated at that time.
WPG's items are top-quality.
If you want a knife, a Mle. 49/56 bayonet and scabbard with the brown leather on the scabbard would work post-1960 for most units, and the US dumped a boatload of M3 fighting knives. Private-purchase hunting knives were also seen. I had a simple sheath made for my German-made Bowie. Edged weapons could fill their own thread. Pocket knives: Opinel or Douk Douk folder.
Almost all of the pataugas were OD with the very dark green sole. Khaki pataugas with the khaki sole were private-purchase items, and they would work. The "Pallabrouse" style with the reinforcing seem parallel to the eyelets would also work. Palladium was the largest contractor, and, thankfully, they are still around. The availability of the OD/"OTAN" is spotty, though. Also, they have a few different fabric options. One is a brushed canvas that is smooth. That would be no good. Stick to the original duck canvas. Mil-Tec Pataugas are of noticeably lesser quality, but they are available, and look mostly correct. To be fair, one pair of my Mil-Tecs is my yardwork pair and they are holding up just fine.
|
|
|
New guy
May 10, 2018 12:58:05 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on May 10, 2018 12:58:05 GMT -5
I aim to be as generic as possible. I think I have a pair of Mle.52 canteens with black caps I once bought for my little nephews somewhere but I'm sure they have the later style cover with 4 snaps. I'll see if I can dig them up anyway, if I still have them in the first place.
I really like pataugas and can wear them under my jeans too but since I have the Mle.52 boots I can wait for a nice deal to come along. I'm keeping an eye on the local variant of Craigslist just in case. I'll wait for OTAN Palladiums then or cheap Mil-Tecs.
I have a bunch of WW2 and Vietnam-era M1 helmets I can fit with a French 2-tone camouflage net for the look. I have at least 1 Vietnam-era parahelmet.
Were M1 Carbines still used at this time?
|
|
|
New guy
May 11, 2018 12:05:39 GMT -5
Post by lew on May 11, 2018 12:05:39 GMT -5
The French loved the Carbine. They received about 35,000 in 1951 or '52 and another 250,000 or so around 1955, along with M1 rifle and SMGs, BARs, and M1917s. The Carbine remained in use until at least the late '60's, and was popular with all sorts of units. They liked the cartridge and concept so much, they made several prototype replacements for the M1 in the early '60's. Jean Huon's book "Proud Promise" covers these rifles, as well as all the French semi-autos. As for the M1 helmet, the helmet itself will be fine, and I think there are still repros of the couple variations of French liners available. An M1C helmet would work, but the Vietnam-era straps are no bueno. Mle. 56 TAP helmets do show up from time-to-time on ebay.fr. Since helmets were worn so infrequently, I wouldn't worry about it much. I have this liner, as well as the CEFEO variant with the wide cloth chin strap: www.ebay.fr/itm/Sous-Casque-TAP-51-53-Dien-Bien-Phu-reproduction/261085331495?hash=item3cc9e60027:m:mf-lxkbxnaL-ec0Dh9T_YwA You are off to a fantastic start. I need to get off me arse and get some more impression photos done.
|
|
|
New guy
May 11, 2018 12:23:40 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on May 11, 2018 12:23:40 GMT -5
Thanks!
What are the average prices for the webbing listed above? I'll wait with buying anything from eBay till W&P coming July; it is one of the biggest military vehicle & re-enactment events in the world and I'm sure I can shop around there as there always are plenty of French dealers as well. Added bonus is I can fit stuff first if needed and save on shipping costs.
|
|
|
New guy
May 11, 2018 12:42:11 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on May 11, 2018 12:42:11 GMT -5
I'll wait with buying anything from eBay till W&P coming July
Well, I almost believed myself there for a minute....
These Wissart pataugas size 44 are offered for sale on a French site, can anyone confirm or deny they are original Algeria or maybe even Indochina? How do original Wissarts fall size-wise (I usually wear 43)? These are the only pics I have now.
|
|
|
New guy
May 14, 2018 12:41:15 GMT -5
Post by lew on May 14, 2018 12:41:15 GMT -5
I know Brousart (spelling?) and Palladium were both contractors during both conflicts. I think [emphasis on "think"] that Wissart was contracted during the Algerian War. Either way, it looks the part and would work for either. There were a couple of other makers, as well.
|
|
|
New guy
May 14, 2018 15:25:39 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on May 14, 2018 15:25:39 GMT -5
I will ask for the shipping costs. The shoes themselves are pretty cheap so if shipping is reasonable I'll take the plunge.
|
|
|
New guy
Jun 3, 2018 13:54:50 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on Jun 3, 2018 13:54:50 GMT -5
Shipping was too high so I didn't persue... I'll get a new pair of Mil-Tecs or Palladiums some time.
|
|
|
New guy
Jul 30, 2018 8:51:57 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on Jul 30, 2018 8:51:57 GMT -5
Just got back from a (VERY hot) week at the War & Peace Revival Show in the UK, and I did manage to find some gear: - M50/53 belt (dated 1962); - M50 suspenders; - M52 canteen with brown cap, cup and early 2-snap carrier; - 3-cell grenade pouch; - A single Mas49 webbing pouch; - A pair of leather post-war (I think) MAS 36(?) pouches; - A pair of 1943 dated M1 carbine pouches, French modified;
- A later/modern M50 belt, with green metal parts and adjustable at both ends; - Drago wing (un-numbered); - A pile of unrelated stuff. My friend who gave me the jacket also has the trousers, a correct TAP M51 helmet and some webbing I can have. So all in all I have a reasonably complete set-up now; I would just like to have an M49 hat and a pair of pataugas. Found 1 original pair but they were way too small.
|
|
|
New guy
Jul 30, 2018 14:38:57 GMT -5
Post by lew on Jul 30, 2018 14:38:57 GMT -5
Nice score, David!
|
|
|
New guy
Jul 30, 2018 14:46:43 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on Jul 30, 2018 14:46:43 GMT -5
I hope the M52 canteen with brown cap is correct for Algeria? They didn't have black caps and the green ones seemed a bit... modern.
|
|
|
New guy
Jul 31, 2018 13:26:42 GMT -5
Post by lew on Jul 31, 2018 13:26:42 GMT -5
Brown or black are correct for Algeria. Green is mid-'60's, as are the covers with two sets of snaps.
|
|
|
New guy
Aug 4, 2018 15:14:43 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on Aug 4, 2018 15:14:43 GMT -5
Do the size of the Mil-Tec pataugas run true? A marked size 43 will indeed be a 43 and not 39 or 46?
|
|
|
Post by earlymb on Aug 18, 2018 9:27:24 GMT -5
What it looks like so far. I have a few extra bits of kit (a pair of Mle.1945 mod. pouches and a single webbing TAP Mle.1950 pouch) and I hope to get the TAP 47/56 trousers, an M51 TAP helmet and some more gear soon.
|
|
|
New guy
Aug 28, 2018 12:45:53 GMT -5
Post by lew on Aug 28, 2018 12:45:53 GMT -5
Sorry for the late reply, but the sizing for the Mil-tecs does run true,
Your get-up is looking mighty sharp. That TAP jacket has just the right amount of saltiness.
|
|
|
New guy
Aug 29, 2018 3:30:01 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on Aug 29, 2018 3:30:01 GMT -5
Thanks!
The way this jacket is faded makes me think it has a chance of actually having been worn in Algeria. Funny thing is the flaps of both pockets on the right side have a slightly different tone of green compared to the rest and there is no indication they have ever been replaced.
|
|
|
New guy
Feb 18, 2019 10:17:56 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on Feb 18, 2019 10:17:56 GMT -5
Well, my friend found some more stuff and came though... big time! First the headgear. I think both kepis are Mle.1946 (the white one is 1990's-modern). The left Bigeard cap is repro and in my size, the right one is original and could be locally made; it doesn't have any markings. The green beret is relatively modern but the insignia is most likely original Algeria-period. I don't know much yet about the M51 OTAN helmet; the liner is standard infantery with a blurred/unreadbale stamp, the shell is para but has no markings at all. I'm not sure if it's correct for Algeria. Next is the webbing. I haven't been able to ID the musette bag exactly yet, but it could be a TAP Mle.50 although the carrying strap seems a bit different. The shovel head is dated 1945, the canteen April 1954 and it comes with the early holder with press studs and 2 hanger loops. The bandage pouch was a lucky find at a small show yesterday and came with an original French bandage (not in pic); it is unmarked at the outside. The belt is adjustable at both sides and post-Algeria. All the webbing is stamped with maker marks and as usually these are unreadable. More equipment: a 1953 dated Zeltbahn and a trench knife, most likely made from a (French?) bayonet. Unfortunately someone tried to sharpen it with a Dremel tool... Moving on to some clothing. Two pairs of TAP 47/56 trousers, the left one with some tears and field repairs (made from a handkerchief). Unfortunately, both are too small for me. I assume this is an Mle.47 shirt with shoulderboards for a Corporal-Chef, and a pair of the dress shoulder pieces for enlisted men. I could use some help with this one. This TAP 47/53 smock is in absolute pristine, mint condition and a large size. However, neither of us knows for sure if it's an original one or a repro. I assume it's the latter but any input is most welcome! The only stamp is in the pics and the male studs are marked 'Durable - Dot - RC', with the last 'R' being reversed. I can make pics of any detail if needed.
|
|
|
New guy
Feb 18, 2019 11:49:46 GMT -5
Post by craigtx on Feb 18, 2019 11:49:46 GMT -5
Quite the score there! The musette appears to be, indeed, a TAP Mle 50. Right above the canteen is a TAP first aid pouch. I believe that's a Mle 50 (51?) canteen. Does it have the cup as well?
I'm not sure if the jacket is an original, or repro... I'll let others give an opinion on that.
Craig
|
|
|
Post by earlymb on Feb 18, 2019 21:20:13 GMT -5
Thanks! There is no cup with the canteen.
|
|
|
New guy
Feb 18, 2019 22:34:39 GMT -5
Post by craigtx on Feb 18, 2019 22:34:39 GMT -5
Too bad! That would have been the icing on the cake!
Craig
|
|
|
New guy
Feb 19, 2019 4:51:34 GMT -5
Post by earlymb on Feb 19, 2019 4:51:34 GMT -5
What model cup should I be looking for?
|
|
|
New guy
Feb 19, 2019 8:32:14 GMT -5
Post by craigtx on Feb 19, 2019 8:32:14 GMT -5
I'll try to get a series of pictures of the cup later this week. Craig
|
|