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Post by lew on Sept 9, 2015 10:00:59 GMT -5
I have all my books packed away, but even then, I don't remember seeing any mention of this.
What did French troops sleep on in the field?
We all know they wrapped themselves in very heavy and warm wool blankets (I have three.), but what was between that and the ground? Given the high levels of moisture in/on the ground in Indo, a barrier would have been a necessity. Even in Algeria, something to keep the dirt a little further removed would have been a good idea. In Legionnaire, Simon Murray mentions packing along a heavy mil plastic sheet that comes in handy during one of his training exercises after the war, but the manner in which it is mentioned makes it clearly seem like it was a novelty and not something widely practiced.
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Post by craigtx on Sept 9, 2015 21:09:53 GMT -5
I've seen photos of CEFEO troops wearing raincoats, perhaps those, or the rain cape that is in one of my reference books. Or maybe even a shelter half.
I don't remember coming across anything that really said what was used. But I agree logic would dictate that they would have used something.
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Post by lew on Sept 10, 2015 7:19:35 GMT -5
Since I know heavy mil plastic sheeting was available in France and North Africa during the '50's, I won't hesitate to use it for later impressions. That leaves Indo up in the air, although you've given me a starting point. I've also asked this question of my contact in France (Christian). We'll see what he says.
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Post by craigtx on Sept 10, 2015 7:26:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd be interested to know. In the hot humid climes of SE Texas a ground cloth of some sort was/is essential when camping.
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Post by toussant on Sept 10, 2015 18:54:48 GMT -5
The Brits and Commonwealth usually were issued a ground cloth or a rain cape during WWII (I've done 1 Can Para). Could have sent on to earlier Indochina along with other Brit Kit? I don't think that would have been too far of a stretch with all those other surplus supplied items. By the way, if that does prove true, WPG carries an excellent repro that will fill the bill nicely. I've done some camps wrapped in one with a light blanket and been very comfortable. ---Toussant
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Post by lew on Sept 10, 2015 19:28:43 GMT -5
I have WPG's offering bookmarked. If there's no other option forthcoming, I'll grab one or two and not look back.
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Post by slehman on Sept 10, 2015 19:59:33 GMT -5
Toussant:
1 Can Para, where are you located? I had a few friends who re-enacted 1 Can in Southern Ontario, myself although I served with the Canadian Airborne Battle Group from 90-93 but I portrayed Fjr being from German descent. That and there was no 1 Can Para when I started portraying WWII.
Back in the mid 70s as a young reservist, we were issued a poncho/ground sheet and a grey wool blanket. The poncho was folded in half and snapped together at both the bottom and the side making a decent little pouch. The wool blanket was tucked inside the poncho. It was pretty comfortable for the time. I would assume the concept was pretty universal although in Indochine, it might not have been practical during much of the year.
Steven
Southern Ontario
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Post by toussant on Sept 10, 2015 20:10:04 GMT -5
slehman:
I'm your Yank neighbor to the south in Minnesota- did 1 Can Para here in Midwest, but left as they were boozers and capbusters and not really interested in the authenticity and integrity of the real soldiers. Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind having a party either, but public displays and representations are NOT the place to kick back as a hung over slob. I have since gone into early North American history of the fur trade and frequent BWCA and Quetico waters by canoe. (By the way, Old Fort William is TOP SHELF museum and interpretive work) I became interested in both Indochina wars because a number of my students are of Asian descent. The Brit WWII cape I've used in the field sounds very similar to the manner of field craft you've described, not completely waterproof, but will help you sleep more comfortably at night. ---Cheers! ---Toussant
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Post by lew on Sept 11, 2015 8:50:47 GMT -5
Toussant: I would assume the concept was pretty universal although in Indochine, it might not have been practical during much of the year. I don't know how much jungle experience you have, but I have a little experience in Central America. The jungle can get damn cold at night, even more so after it rains (read: all the time) and in the winter (doesn't apply near the Equator). Freezing temperatures were not uncommon in Indo, especially in the Central and Northern Highlands. Being wet all day long makes the situation even worse. In addition to a sleep system- tent, bag, blanket, whatever- anyone spending the night in the jungle should, at least, bring a dedicated sleep shirt so they can be dry and warm for at least a few hours. |
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Post by slehman on Sept 11, 2015 19:41:55 GMT -5
Steve
I didn't get a chance to do jungles, after Somalia I've not been a fan of snakes, spiders and chafing. It's all been Europe or deserts.
Steven
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Post by lew on Sept 12, 2015 9:04:21 GMT -5
I'm with ya on that. I prefer a lack of humidity. The jungle is neutral: it hates everybody equally.
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Post by craigtx on Sept 12, 2015 9:48:08 GMT -5
I've got the WPG ground sheet for WW2 purposes, works great. I don't think it's much of a stretch. Although I would recommend gettin' some 1/4" grommets to go in the holes on the edge. I don't know why they weren't installed to begin with.
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Post by Kenneth on Sept 14, 2015 6:31:28 GMT -5
I was under the impression that a shelter-quarter like a Zeltbahn was on issue in the French Army. Perhaps that was later. They certainly had shelter-quarters much earlier, as far back as the turn of the century but I don't know what shape they were. Something of the sort was on issue in 1940 but I don't recall seeing a photo of one unfolded.
The British during the war issued both a ground sheet in different patterns that could be worn as a rain cape and they also issued a gas cape at the same time (so did the Germans). I suspect the gas cape was too flimsy to function as a rain cape but that's just a guess. At some point, the British began issuing a US-style poncho, at least by the end of the 1950s. I don't know if anyone still uses ponchos.
Edit: I made this post before reading the other thread about French splinter camo.
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Post by rasperguy on Sept 14, 2015 8:02:21 GMT -5
I was under the impression that a shelter-quarter like a Zeltbahn was on issue in the French Army. Perhaps that was later. They certainly had shelter-quarters much earlier, as far back as the turn of the century but I don't know what shape they were. Something of the sort was on issue in 1940 but I don't recall seeing a photo of one unfolded. The British during the war issued both a ground sheet in different patterns that could be worn as a rain cape and they also issued a gas cape at the same time (so did the Germans). I suspect the gas cape was too flimsy to function as a rain cape but that's just a guess. At some point, the British began issuing a US-style poncho, at least by the end of the 1950s. I don't know if anyone still uses ponchos. Edit: I made this post before reading the other thread about French splinter camo. Kenneth, Doing both WWI and WWII Brit in my time I can try and help you. The Brits were issued as early as WWI a square headless ground sheet made from rubberized canvas and also a rain cape, cut large to fit over your kit and secured by buttons up to the neck. Some got one or the other or both over time. I have not seen or managed to use the ground sheet as a rain cape without some difficulty. There are lots of pictures of Brits in both wars using the rain cape, very popular and issued item. The rain cape came in darker brown then khaki colored in WWI, by WWII all rain capes where issued in khaki. Post war, mid-late 50's rain capes where staring to be made in OD green for the Korean war and the Malaysia conflict. Several other countries copied Brit gear post war, Dutch and Belgians in particular who made very close copies to Brit issue, but only in OD green and different color buttons. Gas capes are made of a thin parachute material that is impregnated with chemicals. It is not a good choice for rain gear for our impressions as you only saw Brits being issued with them in 1939, and for DDAY. Outside of these small periods of time you didn't see them in use, and they never made it to the surplus market so my guess they where destroyed because of the probably toxic chemicals found in them. So I would gather they never made it into French hands to use. But it would be more likely a rain cape would. US poncho's didn't see wide use and issue until late Korean war, so I doubt many ever got into French hands as it was new kit. The French did issue a copy of the US WWII rain jacket. It was just like the WWII US version, in khaki rubberized canvas, then as the US one more rubber material later in the 50's and in OD. I would gather more guys might have those? The US kept using the rain jacket until later in the Korean war when the poncho's was issued. Looking at French kit procurements from the US in this period it looked like they put more priority for new US kit in Coms gear and weapons, transport, not personnel kit. So I doubt the French soldiers would have US poncho's and or US tent/rain gear, at least not the new stuff. As the Brit rain capes where in transition to OD green, again, new kit, so most likely if a French soldier got a surplus Brit rain cape it probably would be khaki. WPG makes an excellent repo of both the ground sheet and the rain cape for use. I do not suggest using an original more are delicate now or the rubber has turned hard and crunchy, not to mention expensive when in comparison to spot on repo's available. I hope this helps |
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Post by rasperguy on Sept 14, 2015 8:17:24 GMT -5
Having done some time in Belize, Panama, and Columbia jungles suck...
Camping in a jungle is problematic
1. Most likely all the ground is muddy and covered in insects, hence why hammocks where popular issue items in this climate, (did French issue these?)
2. Humidity and rain keep everything moist and wet, so kit not treated for mildew and rot will deteriorate quickly, I know French Tap gear was treated, the leather gear would probably last a week in a monsoon, unknown on Brit P38, it was mostly untreated, later US kit was, after 1943 and all OD green versions.
3. If you do camp on the ground you need two water barriers, a lean to tarp and a ground cover, or be prepared to sleep in the mud.
4. Nets and insect protection is a must...I cant describe the horror of insects in the jungle, everything bites, everything seems to want to eat you...
5. Water is very important, you sweat like a quart or more water an hour, I carried more than one canteen, I know people make comments on here they where only issued one canteen set, I would say that is correct for a garrison impression, or new in country unit, but I guarantee an old hand would pick a 2nd canteen up if they could, (hate to say but best kit resupply is from a wounded or killed comrade).
6. The tropics are very hot and humid, once acclimated, when the temperature drops below 75, and below 70 to the 60's you feel cold, like if a temperate weather person weather drops below 50 to 40. It does not require a Arctic jacket to feel warmer but the light pile jacket or issue sweater would be enough to make you comfortable. The highlands on Indochina could go as low as in the 40's, so it was even worse for the locals.
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Post by slehman on Sept 14, 2015 13:01:24 GMT -5
Rasp'
Thanks for the insight, while I knew much of this through training, I didn't want to chime in without the experience.
All the best
Steven
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Post by rasperguy on Sept 14, 2015 13:18:15 GMT -5
Rasp' Thanks for the insight, while I knew much of this through training, I didn't want to chime in without the experience. All the best Steven I never did any long hardship patrol tours, just got to hang with some with the local militaries who taught me some, (Colombian and Belize defense Forces) and see and hang out in the Brit Jungle training center at Belize, (see and experience some of their training). Did some rucking in the jungle, was not a happy place. Needless to say I felt sorry for the guys who where doing this 24/7 in this climate. One time in Belize there was so many mosquitoes swarming it was a black freaking cloud in the trees above us. I used to laugh at the mosquito gloves, boots and big head dress issued out in WWII and the French copy for our period, but after you experienced this you know why they had them. I would rather fight in the Alps  |
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Post by lew on Sept 14, 2015 20:04:56 GMT -5
Excellent write up, Rasperguy. I've spent some time in Belize and the Yucatan.
I've not seen mention of a French issued hammock. The troops typically only carried one canteen on the belt, but standard practice was to have one or more in the pack. Drink from those first leaving the one on the belt as a reserve. Water purification tablets were issued with every ration kit, so two or three bottles would be sufficient with all the water naturally available (pre-filtering would be recommended). Leather gear rotted quick, hence the transition from leather equipment- Mle. 45 and foreign-made- to the TAP gear.
Acclimatization to hot and cold conditions require contradictory adaptations within the body, so one can't have both. Comment #6 is most certainly accurate, and the cold and humid conditions could very easily be hazardous when paired with warm days if one let their guard down.
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Post by lew on Sept 14, 2015 20:12:30 GMT -5
Rasp' I would rather fight in the Alps Amen to that. I will happily take mountains and deserts over the tropics. |
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Post by slehman on Sept 14, 2015 20:32:47 GMT -5
Amen to that. I will happily take mountains and deserts over the tropics. I'm with you two. The saving grace of snow is that it freezes most vermin, I was praying for a good snow storm in Afghanistan to freeze the baddies in their man jammies. While in the opening days of Somalia, the ground bugs were much worse than the airborne bugs so guys slept with their bug bars inverted like a bathtub. That all changed when the termites hatched. Regardless of which hole you might be sleeping in, giving the boots a very good shaking prior to putting them back on was essential. Steven |
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Post by lew on Sept 15, 2015 7:12:10 GMT -5
Giving yer boots a shake and finding a black widow or a scorpion is a sobering experience. Foot powder and stink seem to be good deterrents to most critters, though.
Those dudes in their man jammies probably wouldn't even notice if it was freezing.
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Post by Étienne on Sept 16, 2015 21:03:41 GMT -5
My two cents would be to use: a Brit WWII groundcloth, a German zelt, a French zelt or shelter half, and/or a US WWII shelter half. Plastic sheeting works well, of course, but it is noisy
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Post by lew on Sept 17, 2015 8:00:47 GMT -5
Just be careful with which impression one uses a German Zelt, as not everyone used them. Other than that, I like the list.
I'll save the heavy mil plastic sheeting for Algérie impressions. It's going to be inside a tent or a pack, so I'm not too worried if it's not 100% accurate.
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Post by Étienne on Sept 17, 2015 11:44:35 GMT -5
Yeah...as with most of all this kinda stuff, it all depends on what unit one is portraying
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