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Post by hvd5677 on May 9, 2015 18:26:10 GMT -5
Just joined today. I am primarily a WWI reenactor (British unit), but have interests in many areas, including French Indochina.
Vince
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Post by hvd5677 on May 9, 2015 18:26:54 GMT -5
Also, I am located in northern Illinois
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Post by lew on May 9, 2015 19:32:52 GMT -5
Howdy, Vince. Bienvenue à bord. There are a few of us active on here (Craig, "craigtx"; Steve, "Étienne; myself (also Steve) and a couple others), and there is a ton of info to be had. If you have questions, ask away and someone will chime in. We have a lot of knowledge between us, and we usually know where to look if something new comes up. I'm in southeast Michigan for the time being, but planning on relocating to Arizona later in the year. My primary interest is the Algerian War and the following units: 11e BPC, 1e RCP, 15e RTS/75e RIMa, and 13e RDP. That being said, at least from the point of view of the French and those interested in collecting, Algeria and Indochina were more like one slightly-interrupted conflict, and there is much overlap. Therefore, I have also branched out into Indochina impressions- 1e RCP, GCMA, and 6e and 8e BPC. Have you any direction with regard to your interest or are you just starting out? I suggest that you look through some of the other recent introduction threads, as a lot of good information for beginners has been posted. Lastly, we are putting together a group buy for eBay member "panzarfaust1943"'s TAP Mle. 47/51 (actually 47/52) "lizard" camo uniform sets. Examples can be found on his Flickr page here: www.flickr.com/photos/panzerfaust1943/page1/ The initial run of this reproduction was made a few years ago and the last one I saw went for 181€ apiece for the jacket and trousers on eBay.fr. Originals usually sell for over 1200€ and are usually worn ragged. We are still in the preliminary stages, but we have most of the details worked out. Cary's (panzerfaust1943) wares are of exceptional quality. I have a set each of his repro British Windproof sets. Shoot me a message if you are interested and I will relay the details. Do not expect these to be made at any other time in the foreseeable future. Cheers!
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Post by hvd5677 on May 11, 2015 13:50:08 GMT -5
Thanks Steve. Just starting out, but in addition to WWI reenacting I am generally interested in military history and have been doing a lot of reading recently on French Indochina War. As an adjunct to these things, I also enjoy collecting original and reproduction uniforms and equipment from the time periods I read about. Although I don't know if I'll ever get to the field as an actual reenactor of this time period, I have begun putting together what I hope to be an impression of a typical, non-elite, early war, infantryman (I dont know enough yet to be more specific).....So far this is what I have put together
1. French Mle 1892 Bread Bag Post War (original) 2. Chapeau de brusse (tan, reproduction) 3. US HBT fatigue jacket+trousers (repro) 4. British pattern 44 water bottle+ pattern 44 jungle green cover (original) 5. French Mle 35 mess kit (original) 6. Palladium Boots (khaki, modern manufacture) 7. US M1936 Pistol Belt (repro) 8. US M1 helmet (original) + liner (repro)
Thinking about some or all of the following US M1936/M1944/M1945 Suspenders, combat pack, cargo pack (already have a postwar unissued M1945 cargo pack) or M1936 musette Airtex Tropical Khaki Shirt (repro) Original US Army WWII Poncho
Finally, I have a SMLE rifle. I know things got more standardized as the war went one, but is this at all correct for the early years ?
Id appreciate your views on any or all of this.
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Post by hvd5677 on May 11, 2015 15:15:10 GMT -5
I have taken a look at the articles from Military Illustrated on Non-airborne items posted by Etienne in April which answered my questions from earlier today to a great extent. Looks like most of the things I mentioned above were in use throughout the war. The article mentioned the M1936 pattern belt, suspenders and musette, but not the M1944/M1945 versions. Any thoughts on poncho, SMLE, shirt ? Also what about things like eyeglasses, wrist watches, rations ?
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Post by hvd5677 on May 12, 2015 11:31:52 GMT -5
Also thinking of adding a couple of Mle 45 leather cartridge pouches
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Post by lew on May 12, 2015 12:33:07 GMT -5
The poncho would be fine, and the SMLE would be correct for some units in the earlier years, particularly the Troupes de Marine (colonial infantry, non-airborne). A No. 4 would be fine, too. As the war progressed, units would have seen first more American rifles- M1917, in particular- and then more French weapons and equipment as French industry got back on its feet.
Mle. 45 pouches and equipment would be excellent for non-airborne units. Make sure you get the russet/natural brown leather. Black pouches were used by the Armée de l'Air, and black weapons slings were used by everyone. The yellow leather that is pretty common was issued in late 1962, and the green leather in the early '70's.
Your equipment list is good for an early war impression, and most of it would work for early-war airborne, particularly 1e RCP, which used a lot of American equipment since they were raised and trained by American advisers in Algeria in 1943. The colonial units have more of a British-inspired lean to them.
Raymond Guyader's The French Foreign Legion in Indochina 1946-1956, as well as Les Paras Français en Indochine 1945-1954 and Les Paras Français en Algérie 1954-1962 by Éric Adam and Patrice Pavetta are mus-have works for the Indo/Algérie enthusiast, and will answer a lot of your questions.
A note on the Palladium Pataugas: They seem to have discontinued the olive drab Hi Pampas, which is a shame. The sand-colored Hi Pampa or Pallabrouse models will work. The beige/khaki/sand Pataugas were all private-purchase shoes. Issue ones were OD. Sturm-Miltec out of Germany makes OD Pataugas that are dead ringers for the locally-made shoes.
Early war colonial infantry would more likely be issued a Mle. 26 helmet instead of the US M1.
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Post by hvd5677 on May 12, 2015 12:45:32 GMT -5
Great information Steve. Ill see if I can get copies of the books. Any leads on sources for the Mle 26 helmets ?
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Post by Étienne on May 12, 2015 13:37:39 GMT -5
I've seen helmets on eBay occasionally...it seems you could get a Mle 1926 shell pretty cheap and then get a repro liner (from one of the WWII reenacting sutlers), which would hold up better anyway. Also, I think much of the time the helmet badge was missing or removed when used in Indochina post-WWII (but I could be wrong about that). Also, early/early-ish war I'd go with leather boots like Mle 1917 rather than pataugas, but perhaps that's just me. Also, I'd go with the US M-1936 suspenders (original or repro) instead of the M-1944/45...although I think the "transitional" set (M-1936/43 maybe?) is OK to use as well. Post-war Norwegian suspenders look really close to them and can be bought cheap (try Keepshooting.com). Regarding an early war pack, I'd go with a US M-1910/1926 or a Brit P37 small pack (which I use!), as I don't recall reading about the US M-1944/45 packs being used by the French. welcome, and good luck! And, don't let Lew sucker you into doing an Algeria impression right away!
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Post by hvd5677 on May 12, 2015 13:58:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice, Etienne. I was thinking along the same lines as far as shoes are concerned, even though I already own a couple of pairs of Palladiums. Thanks for anticipating my question about the helmet badge.
Any suggestions regarding eyeglasses, watches, rations ?
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Post by lew on May 12, 2015 16:07:55 GMT -5
Good advice other Steve. Pataugas made their appearance in 1947, and it would take some time for them to be issued/purchased. Leather shoes- brodequins Mle. 17 or 45 or British Ammo boots- would be the better option, depending on unit, of course. Right on about packs: I have not come across mention of the US late-war packs coming up. A P37 pack would be perfect, and they found their way into just about every unit. Algeria? Aww, come on: We have cookies. Wine- not Vinogel- brandy, and beer (Kronenbourg lager) is officially issued, plus the local cuisine is far better. The only dangerous diseases come from the ladies of disrepute, not the environment. Let us not forget the more widespread use of helicopters, half-tracks, Jeeps, tanks, and- my favorite- the Ferret Scout Car. I need the latter to complete my 13e RDP impression. I'm sure my wife will understand. Last point: an Algerian War impression is way cheaper and easier to assemble than just about any for Indo.
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Post by hvd5677 on May 12, 2015 17:05:30 GMT -5
Thanks Steve2. Good news on the footwear, I have a couple of pairs of ammo boots already. Don't have any P37 stuff, though, all mine is P08. Got a line already on some reasonably priced Mle 26 casques.
You make a strong case for Algeria, but I can't believe you prefer couscous d'agneau to poisson ala nuoc mam et riz.
By the way, I portray a machine gunner in the Great War period. Any usage of Vickers by the French in Indochina ?
I can see with a pair of ammo boots and Adrian on the one hand and pataugas and M1 helmet on the other you could create a couple of nuanced impressions focusing on different early war periods.
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Post by lew on May 13, 2015 6:58:25 GMT -5
That's the beauty of Indo (and to a lesser extent, Algérie): mix and match. I have both couscous and nuoc mam in my pantry and fridge respectively. I'm a desert rat at heart, though. No dice on the Vickers. Do you have your own? A Bren would be fine, but French machineguns- MAC Mle. 31, Hotchkiss, FM-24/29- and the Browning M1919A4 and A6 were the usual cast of characters, with the bias leaning toward the last three. US M2 MG's were used on armored vehicles and riverine craft. French Mle. 35 packs can be found occasionally.
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Greetings
May 13, 2015 8:01:07 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by hvd5677 on May 13, 2015 8:01:07 GMT -5
Thanks. Our unit has a Vickers but not me personally, unfortunately. I ordered the FFL book yesterday.
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Post by hvd5677 on May 13, 2015 9:17:48 GMT -5
I mean the Raymond Guyader book
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Post by Étienne on May 13, 2015 10:36:22 GMT -5
I feel you could definitely use the P08 large pack, but I'm unsure about the P08 haversack/small pack...I'd look at some pics and compare the P08 and P37. Some surplus P08 might have made it to the post-WWII British military assistance "program" as by that point they were likely happy to get rid of any really early gear in their warehouses. In case you've never seen this website, it's badarse for Brit gear: www.karkeeweb.comAnyway, as Lew said, the cool thing about Indo, especially earlier on (btw, I consider pre-1950 "early war" but that's perhaps just my opinion; Lew could probably tell you the official month and day cut off though as he's the [un]official forum historian ) is it's all mix and match. Just as long as you stay away from Belgian brushstroke and Portugese lizard camo nobody here will be too hard on you Well, since Lew's gonna try and get you to portray Algeria (a.k.a. lazy man's Indochina), I'll likely try and get you into British Malaya...so be careful with us. It's a slippery slope...
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Post by hvd5677 on May 13, 2015 11:19:10 GMT -5
Thanks very much. From what I understand, the main difference between 08 and 37 is the width of the straps and the belt, which both got quite a bit narrower in the 37 version. I agree the large pack would work as I don't think it changed. Karkeeweb is great.
I got a good deal on mle 1892 (?) French leather suspenders and hangers, so need to get a mle 1914 or mle 45 belt to go with them and the leather cartridge pouches I ordered. Should be able to piece together a usable combination of french, US and British gear pretty quickly.
Speaking of Malaya, I also have British P1958 web gear. Did that see any use in that conflict ?
I understand that the French were supplied with re-labeled US and British rations in Indo. Do you try to replicate this aspect ?
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Post by Étienne on May 13, 2015 11:42:21 GMT -5
Oops...forgot the ration thing...I was just reading about some of it "somewhere" online; I do believe that British and U.S. rations were issued to French troops, particularly early war, but apparently there wasn't enough comfort food (i.e. French-like foodstuffs) in them to keep the soldiers interested after a few meals and they were getting upset after several years of it. I do believe they were also issued Vietnamese foodstuffs to vary their diet, but again most soldiers apparently wanted French type foods to remind them of home. So, they likely privately purchased some of their foods when they could (just like in today's military!). Anyway, I'll look around and find where I got some of the info from (maybe here?: 17thdivision.tripod.com/thepeacethatwasnt/id9.html)...but I'm sure utilizing US K-rats or British "bully beef" and other packaged rations would be totally fine. What say ye, Lew? I keep forgetting about the utilization of French leather equipment! D'oh! Yes, the leather gear was used by non-airborne units especially early war; it's pretty cool looking gear, and if you bought the right ones you could also reenact WWII French! It's pretty tough to mix it with the US gear and later post-1950 French web gear, as the fittings and straps don't integrate well. I don't believe that the P58 gear was used in Malaya...maybe very late war and perhaps only by SAS troops. Mostly it was the P44 gear, with some (but not much) P37 mixed in on occasion. BTW, in case you haven't seen this resource yet, check out ECPAD online; there are lots of cool photos and even some useful videos. PATHE is also somewhat useful, particularly for Malaya vids [OK, I'll shut up about Malaya on this forum...for now! mwahaha...] www.ecpad.frwww.britishpathe.com
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Post by hvd5677 on May 13, 2015 11:45:09 GMT -5
Thanks again for answering my barrage of questions.
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Post by lew on May 13, 2015 12:06:46 GMT -5
Cool. I'm slowly cataloging my library, and I'll post the results when I get that done.
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Post by Étienne on May 14, 2015 9:56:03 GMT -5
I don't think anyone here minds new forum members asking questions, so ask away! We're all just glad to meet others with the same interest(s), and many of us learned much of what we know (at least speaking for myself) by asking many a question and reading posts/topics from this forum.
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Post by hvd5677 on May 14, 2015 10:21:54 GMT -5
I really appreciate it. I have a pair of tan Palladiums I bought about 7 years ago. I started a project last night to alter their appearance; convert sole and other rubber parts to black and dye the canvas parts olive green. Ill share some photos if it comes out acceptably. These are a bit easier to work on than the current models as there is less embossing/labeling of the Palladium trademark in various locations.
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Post by lew on May 14, 2015 11:27:43 GMT -5
No need to do that to your Palladiums. The tan will work fine. Issued shoes were OD, private purchase were tan, with or without the reinforcing stripe on the sides below the eyelets (reflected in their Pallabrouse shoe). While Palladium discontinued their OD Pampas, Sturm-Miltec still makes them (and theirs looks more like the locally-produced Pataugas), and there's a firm out of Japan selling a version in both tan and OD. All of the above likely come from the same factory, as the Chinese have been making this type of shoe since the mid-50's. They actually supplied the Algerian ALN with Pataugas, not to mention the NVA and VC in the Second Indochina War. I feel you could definitely use the P08 large pack, but I'm unsure about the P08 haversack/small pack...I'd look at some pics and compare the P08 and P37. Some surplus P08 might have made it to the post-WWII British military assistance "program" as by that point they were likely happy to get rid of any really early gear in their warehouses. In case you've never seen this website, it's badarse for Brit gear: www.karkeeweb.comThe P08 pack was used, but I cannot say the same for the rest of the P08 equipment. I've only seen documentation of P37 and P44 gear. Very cool site. Thanks very much. From what I understand, the main difference between 08 and 37 is the width of the straps and the belt, which both got quite a bit narrower in the 37 version. I agree the large pack would work as I don't think it changed. Karkeeweb is great. I got a good deal on mle 1892 (?) French leather suspenders and hangers, so need to get a mle 1914 or mle 45 belt to go with them and the leather cartridge pouches I ordered. Should be able to piece together a usable combination of french, US and British gear pretty quickly. I understand that the French were supplied with re-labeled US and British rations in Indo. Do you try to replicate this aspect ? Early in the war, that ration scheme held true. I'm not sure of the date of the change over, but the French did supply their own rations. Paras français en Indochine covers this. The 1892 braces (brelage) was used on all subsequent variation of leather gear. Mle. 45 leather equipment is not too difficult to find. eBay usually has some, as does eBay.fr. The Mle. 45 pouches won't work with SMLE clips, so use the British equipment if you plan to use that rifle. The pouches will hold two Mle. 36 5-round stripper clips or one MAS Mle. 49/49-56 magazine. I believe M1 rifle en bloc clips might fit, but I do not have one to test that. Besides, the was most likely used with an M1923 belt or rigger-made Garand belt. P58 gear was not used in Malaya as it was first issued in 1959. Most of it was P44 equipment with some P37 thrown in. I'd have to check to see what was used with the SLR (L1A1) later in the war, but I recall it being P44 webbing. I have a few extra uniform sets for either French conflict. I could outfit a squad. I would not claim to be an (un)official historian for Indo. I'm still learning a lot, but I have a lot of reading material to back me up. I am honored to receive the title, though. That's the beauty of these conflicts- Indo/Algérie, Malaya, WW2- a lot of equipment was common to some or all. Much of what was used in one can be put to use for another. Therein also lies the danger. Tread lightly.
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Post by hvd5677 on May 14, 2015 11:41:04 GMT -5
Great stuff. This is really helpful and practical. New kit is already rolling in. I'll see how it all fits together and share the results.
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Post by hvd5677 on May 14, 2015 13:56:34 GMT -5
A quick question about rigger made Garand belt. Would this be a para specific item ? I have seen rigger pouches but is this something different ?
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Post by Étienne on May 14, 2015 18:34:56 GMT -5
Hmmm...I've not seen a "rigger made Garand belt" but have seen "rigger pouches" for ammunition carrying. However, they (if it's the same ones I'm thinking of) were made by the riggers in U.S. airborne units and for use by US Army airborne personnel in those units in 1944 and 1945 (i.e. late WWII and/or for D-Day and later). I do not believe they were used by the French nor were they used in Indochina. But, there were locally made (i.e. by Vietnamese tailors/entrepreneurs) ammunition pouches that were used by French troops in Indochina, including several variations of the M-1910/1923 "Garand" belt.
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Post by lew on May 14, 2015 19:04:16 GMT -5
Yeah, I wouldn't go with the rigger belt option. I saw one mention of it in French servicee- 1e RCP, I believe, which makes sense since they were so closely intertwined with US airborne units during their formation. Maybe it was the individual clip pouches, but an M1923 belt is the way to go with that. I need to flip through my literature and find that. I might be back in a year or two. It was a one-off thing, and we, as living history types- should be more interested in the average and general-issue rather than the peculiarities.
Yer a quick study, Vince. You wasted little time getting the ball rolling. Most commendable.
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Greetings
May 15, 2015 6:15:41 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by hvd5677 on May 15, 2015 6:15:41 GMT -5
Thanks. Now for the even more esoteric....eyeglasses, sunglasses, watches. Any thoughts on these ?
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Post by lew on May 15, 2015 8:55:08 GMT -5
None of those were standardized until late in the war, with the changes not at all affecting troops in the Far East. In Algeria, there was a standard issue pair of sunglasses, which is in line with 1950's styling. I have not been able to find a model designation.
The standard watch in the '50's and '60's was the Type 20 chronograph. These are still made, but are beaucoup bucks. Do a Google search and you'll run across a site detailing this watch. I received a gift of a repro Kampfgeschwader 26 (Bomber Group 26- German WW2 maritime patrol unit) watch made by Editions Atlas. It's like 9.99€, it's simple and of the period, and it winds up and keeps time with no trouble.
Eyeglasses- send a message to craigtx. He wears prescription specs.
Sunglasses were not very common in Indo- it's usually overcast/raining and steamy- but US Ray Ban Aviators and knock-offs would be appropriate for both wars. They were basically required in Algeria, hence the proliferation.
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Post by Étienne on May 15, 2015 10:01:26 GMT -5
I've seen a few pairs of sunglasses worn by troops in photos of Indochina, and they always look pretty stylish. These are the basic types of sunglasses I would think: ploy-d.tumblr.com/post/117366005785
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