French Mess Equipment?

[lew]

Howdy,

I don't have my reference material in front of me, but what did the troops of CEFEO use for mess equipment? Stoves? Did the Mle. 52 mess kit make an appearance at all?

Zippo and other period lighters were common, and matches were issued with the rations. There were all the varieties of canteens with their respective cups- US M1910, British P44, French Mle. 51- and the Mle. 35 mess kit (gamelle) was the standard. I have some French utensils (copies of US gear, as is the gamelle Mle. 52), but I don't know how early those came about.

This site: www.symboles-et-traditions.fr/articlesmembres/targui/tabac-accessoires/page-tabac.htm has pictures of the cigarettes and pipe tobacco , as well as accessories. Most of my eight pipes would work well for the period, and I have a pipe pouch and a period- albeit US-made- tool. I could use the built-in tobacco pouch, but I'd rather whip up something separate that's colonial-inspired, which also leaves the case able to hold two pipes.

[craigtx]

After a quick look in my reference books, there is very little mention of gamelle. As for stoves, I have no clue. I didn't notice any reference of stoves.

In La Legion Etrangere de 1945 a Nos Jours, in the Indochine section shows a U.S. meatcan and untensils with "BEP gear". The French Foreign Legion in Indochina, 1946 - 1956 shows a pictue of a 3e REI legionnaire on his cot with a U.K. mess tin under his cot. Those appear to be the only pics after an admittedly quick look through the books.

Given the state of supply, especially in early war years, I wouldn't be shocked to see everything from a Mle 35 gamelle, Mle 52 gamelle, Brit mess tin, and U.S. meatcan in use.

I managed to find a coupla '40s NOS pipes that will work well. I also have what is I believe a 50s or 60s tool, English made.

[lew]

Lacking sufficient evidence, I'll stick with the Mle. 35.

I'm looking for one of those legionnaire pipes like the one you showed me a while back. Those little multitools with the scraper, pick, and tamper all rotating around the ring have been made since at least before the 40's until now.

[craigtx]

Good to know about the pipe tool. I'd much rather lug one like that around than the antique.

I discovered that they still make the pipe. I'm probably gonna get a new one and retire the first one I have.

[lew]

That's fantastic. 60€ is a bit pricey, but I'll save me pennies.

[Étienne]

Re: stoves, perhaps they used either German Esbit stoves or British type stoves (Tommy cooker, modified tin can, etc.).

I've seen several photos of FIW soldiers smoking "standard" pipes...I've found a few on ebay by typing in "French" and "briar" and "tobacco pipe" (or similar combinations...). I've had less luck finding French tobacco brands from the period to reproduce the label for a pouch or tin.

[lew]

Aside from that Legionnaire pipe, I really don't need any more.

I have a picture somewhere of an Esbit in use (Algeria?), and I bought one years ago, so I'm covered there. The Tommy Cooker looks like a worthy addition, or I can just make my own with an aluminum can and a Sterno canister.

[Étienne]

BTW, if anyone is planning on using a Brit mess tin/kit, get one of the very early war or the late/post war aluminum ones (or a Dutch one which is close to the Brit), as the tinned steel is not healthy or appetizing to eat off of. WPG has some of the best prices around for the aluminum 1944/1945 dated kits.

I have never seen a photo of a US meat can/mess kit being using in the FIW...but of course that don't mean nuthin' necessarily...

[lew]

Noted. Thanks for the advice.

[Kenneth]

I have been looking for photos, just out of curiosity, of squad cooking equipment in use during the 1950s, meaning the gamelle de campement and the marmite de campement. I have one in aluminum manufactured post-war, which is rather surprising. But the old mess-tin, pre-1935, was still in use in WWII. Anyway, I wondered if any of those were actually used in the field post-war or just stacked away somewhere.

The comments about pipes are interesting. I recall seeing many published photos of British soldiers with pipes from the Korean War period but few from other decades. Of course in WWII, you see cigarettes in almost every photo, sometimes even in formation and formal group photos.

[lew]

Cigarettes were/are for losers. Can't stand the smell of them. Pipes and cigars are fine, and a heck of a lot less damaging to one's health.

[dismounting soapbox] Cigarettes back then were much more an American thing. Yes, they were popular in Europe and elsewhere, but pipes were slightly dominant outside the States. Even in US service, they gave cigarettes a run for their money. Tobacco and amphetamines kept the troops moving in WW2.

Most field cooking was done in the canteen cup, which was so integral to the troop's everyday living. I've loaded my packs- Mle. 50 Bergam, Mle. 55 musette TAP, and even the ridiculously large Sac à dos Mle. 50/53. There's not much room for a mess kit in any of them when everything else is accounted for, so I have my doubts that they were even taken along at all. Le gamelle Mle. 52 is a bit more reasonably proportioned and doesn't take up much space.

[hvd5677]

Here is an interesting picture of French POWs (Robert Capa © International Center of Photography) after their release in Luang Prabang in 1954 which appears to shows a Mle 35 gamelle strapped to a backpack. 

[lew]

Fantastic. I don't know why I said "Mle. 31".

Are you sure those chaps were just released? They couldn't have been held captive for long since they look almost as healthy as I do.

[Kenneth]

Interesting photo. The soldiers could almost be British or Australian, too. They all seemed to be wearing their bush hats the same way during the 1950s. And it is clearly the M1935 mess kit, which is lying on water bottle with a cork, although I don't know the model number. Can't tell what pack it is, though.

My father was a prisoner-of-war in Germany in WWII, having been captured in 1944. There were French prisoners still being held there (Moosburg) when liberated who had been taken prisoner in 1940.

[lew]

The canteen is a Mle. 51, and all of their clothing and the Mle. 36 rifle are all French, so I can believe the "Luang Prabang, 1954" part, just not the POW bit. Still, cool photo. That was definitely the fashion with the bush/boonie hats then. No more than a year later in Algeria, one almost never sees the troops wearing theirs that way.

What unit was your father with? There are the remains of a POW camp out west of my location near my where my grandmother grew up. German officers were held there and many returned after the war.

Cool photo. Thanks for posting it. The photo and the tentative explanation remind of the film La 317ème Section, where French forces are evacuating Laos in late April, early May 1954 as Dien Bien Phu is in its death throes, and other Viet Minh units are penetrating deeper into formerly pacified Laos.

[Kenneth]

I do not recall which unit my father was with when he was captured in Italy, I think around May 1944 but he was infantry. He was 28 when he got drafted. Moosburg is just north of Munich and I was stationed in Augsburg, just west of Munich. My son, when he was in the army, was stationed in Friedberg (before going to Iraq), same place Elvis Presley was stationed.

I have read stories of German POWs held in this country that were exactly the same as the stories my father told of his period of captivity.

[lew]

The German officers had it much easier, and all German POW's would rather be imprisoned in the US rather than Britain. The Brits weren't the most sympathetic, and there is a far greater cultural bond here with so many Americans >1/3) being of German descent, my family included, although we've been here for over two hundred years.

My step-grandfather actually rode out the war in Munich, right down the street from the party headquarters. He was forced to join the party and produce propaganda or he and his wife would be disappeared on a charge of alleged seditious activity.

[hvd5677]

May 21, 2015 12:01:26 GMT -5 Kenneth said:

Interesting photo. The soldiers could almost be British or Australian, too. They all seemed to be wearing their bush hats the same way during the 1950s. And it is clearly the M1935 mess kit, which is lying on water bottle with a cork, although I don't know the model number. Can't tell what pack it is, though.

My father was a prisoner-of-war in Germany in WWII, having been captured in 1944. There were French prisoners still being held there (Moosburg) when liberated who had been taken prisoner in 1940.

Looking closer, is it possible that article that the gamelle is attached to is not a backpack, but a barda instead of the type described in the Guyader book on page 202 ?

[craigtx]

Good eye! I'm thinkin' that might be correct. The apparent wrapping would seem to indicate it.

[lew]

I wish we could get more detail, but I can definitely see the resemblance to a barda. That does look like a Mle. 51 toile de tente (French Zeltbahn copy) in tan wrapped around a bunch of gear. The TAP units received most of the camo Mle. 51's, and these lads certainly don't look like airborne. Good eye.

[Kenneth]

I had raised the question of whether squad cooking utensils were used during this period (the 1950s, either in Vietnam or North Africa). I did in fact run across a photo from the blog of the 8e RIMI, which was in Algeria from 51 to 61. In one photo (and only one), there are about four of the large boilers in use, on an outdoor fire, exactly the way they were intended to be used. I'm referring here to the marmite de campement (boutheon). I always get the marmite de campement and the gamelle de campement confused because they're invariably together in the same illustration. Anyway, that's settled.

That blog, which I probably linked from here, has a huge collection of everyday soldier's life kind of stuff and not more than two or three dead bodies.

[lew]

I'm assuming you meant 8e RIMa. I saved the pictures from the site awhile ago and know of the picture to which you refer. The use of such equipment depended on 1) how long they were in the field, and 2) if they were supported by trucks. If they weren't, there's no way that heavy and bulky mess equipment could or would be carried.

A typical operation in Algeria for troops of the mobile reserve and some sector units would be to be delivered to an AO via truck, helicopter, or airdrop; patrol the countryside for a few hours to two weeks; perform a clear and sweep (ratissage) or two; and eventually arrive at a rendezvous point where the trucks were parked and perhaps some tents set up with a field kitchen- marmites included- awaiting. The unit would either overnight at that point or depart immediately back to base for rest and reequipping. The former was preferred since driving at night was extremely hazardous given insurgent activity: ambushes, harassing fire, mines, road cuts, obstructions; road conditions: tight, narrow, winding mountain roads and frequent landslides in some zones; and light discipline: usually blacked out at night. Automobile accidents killed and injured more French troops than enemy activity.