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Post by Étienne on Apr 2, 2015 20:50:38 GMT -5
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Post by lew on Apr 2, 2015 23:58:58 GMT -5
Your last WA link is tits up. The pictures are kaput.
I am unconvinced that the pattern is French. Stocks of German fabric were in abundance in Indochine. Actually, I just saw a theater-made anorak in Zeltbahn M31 pattern today on ebay.fr. The French did use German material and did re-stamp German pieces. The FFL was not the only recipient, but, judging from photos, they got most of it.
The Italians were the first to the scene with a complete camo uniform with their "San Marco" camo in 1929, and the Germans copied this heavily, as well as used it outright, chiefly for SS use.
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Post by Étienne on Apr 3, 2015 9:37:33 GMT -5
The last (color) photos are from that webpage...luckily I saved them some time back. That "MP44" page link says that some of the splinter zelts that are/were thought to be French are just late-war German (scroll down towards the end to the "reduced pattern" section). I thought I read somewhere that someone was doing a "study" on where specific German manufacturers were located, and which ones were captured at the end of the war and/or controlled by the French after the war. If so, that might shed some light on seeing whether it was: the French reuse of existing stocks of captured equipment (as war surplus from depots and such); the French use of materials and/or equipment captured at the factories; or the continued manufacture by/for the French from German factories that had produced the items during the war at least into the late 1940s. While I am in no way knowledgeable of WWII Axis camouflage patterns, the splinter-esque zelts I've seen -- that appear to be or are thought to be French -- seem to be almost a mix of splinter and Italian camo to me. Maybe we could somehow invite and entice the FFL Museum director to join this forum?  |
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Post by Étienne on Apr 3, 2015 9:41:26 GMT -5
I was hoping this site would help: www.zeltbahn.net/types.htmBut alas it's very elementary. There's also supposed to be a book out "History of the German Zeltbahn, 1925-1945" by Mark Steacy and Werner Palinckx, but I can't find a copy. Here's another: iacmc.forumotion.com/t4364-french-50s-shelter-halfI keep finding webpages on the topic, but it seems like the "argument" is still not entirely settled. So far, everyone basically states that "yes, the French military used splinter pattern zelts and shelters after WWII"; and "most of the splinter pattern zelts thought to be French are wartime German"...so... |
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Post by lew on Apr 3, 2015 11:19:17 GMT -5
The French occupied most of southwestern Germany, i.e. that part adjacent to French territory. As such, they notably had control of such manufacturing concerns as Walther and Mauser, which is why one will see the Mauser banner on the MAS Mle. 45 .22 LR rifle and partly explains why the French military had so many P-38 pistols, some of which (production code SWW, I believe) were made under direct French supervision. The rest of the P-38's were war captures or leftover stock, and the same goes for K98k rifles. So, yes, with their industrial capacity severely stunted, the French were quick to utilize what was at hand.
At most, the mystery pattern would have been produced in Germany under French direction in the couple years following the end of the war, but that's as far as I would be willing to believe.
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Post by Étienne on Apr 3, 2015 11:35:10 GMT -5
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Post by rasperguy on Sept 12, 2015 22:21:49 GMT -5
Looking at the photo's the Camo in question is Italian Camo, that looks to be used to make a WWII French square shelter half.
It looks that a factory in France in WWII was converted to service the Rech during the war. Post war it seems the French military kept using the factory to produce German style zelts put in khaki and later lizard Camo.
Early khaki zelts I have owned used zinc buttons like German zelts, later aluminum and then pie buttons with and without French military markings.
The early French khaki zelts are identical to the tropical khaki zelt made for the Africa Korps, many WWII German AK reenacters use them as originals are $ and no one I know repo's them, not enough demand.
My guess is the Italian material pilfered by the Germans was liberated by the French and reused. The later pie buttons are used so later made, probably to make a larger tent. Curious the factory made it like a earlier pattern French tent quarter, or it was cut like an Italian tent quarter but was incomplete and finished with French buttons. Italian shelter quarters used a distinct Bakelite button.
Anyway never heard of a French Camo made like this
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Post by lew on Sept 13, 2015 17:25:21 GMT -5
That is not the Italian "San Marco" camo. That pattern has much more brown and the pattern differs somewhat. A similarity is evident, though. Interesting idea about French factories producing the material. I suppose the sources could likely be all of the above: wartime or later French production, German production, and/or old stock. If anything, we know exactly from where the idea arose.  |
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Post by rasperguy on Sept 14, 2015 8:27:33 GMT -5
Actually most people don't recognize this as it is real WWII Italian material, WWII Italian camo was more brown and used a subdued more olive green, vs the late 50's and 60's Italian camo crap you see all over the surplus stores today. It is also in the right pattern. I do WWII Italian as well in my past.
I really don't know what environment that crappy post war Italian camo camouflages you in, possible a Pimps bedroom but that neo-green and bright brown is a clue it is post war and worthless.
The reason most folks never see the WWII Italian real camo is it is highly coveted by unscrupulous WWII German reenacters who chop it up to make SS camo items and uniforms. The Italian camo was very popular with the Germans. This has made getting a original Italian war material camo both rare and expensive.
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Post by rasperguy on Sept 14, 2015 8:38:26 GMT -5
Actually most people don't recognize this as it is real WWII Italian material, WWII Italian camo was more brown and used a subdued more olive green, vs the late 50's and 60's Italian camo crap you see all over the surplus stores today. It is also in the right pattern. I do WWII Italian as well in my past. I really don't know what environment that crappy post war Italian camo camouflages you in, possible a Pimps bedroom but that neo-green and bright brown is a clue it is post war and worthless. The reason most folks never see the WWII Italian real camo is it is highly coveted by unscrupulous WWII German reenacters who chop it up to make SS camo items and uniforms. The Italian camo was very popular with the Germans. This has made getting a original Italian war material camo both rare and expensive. This is an excellent reference on the differences on war time and post war Italian camo, as you can see the camo pictured is correct WWII Italian color. You can look up German camo here as well The below is the more common found neo-color Italian camo post war crap, NOT correct for us in any of our reenactments, IndoChina or Algeria...  hope this helps |
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Post by lew on Sept 14, 2015 10:11:11 GMT -5
I stand corrected. I knew it looked close. Thanks for the education.
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Post by rasperguy on Sept 14, 2015 11:27:50 GMT -5
I stand corrected. I knew it looked close. Thanks for the education. No problem, at least this I know a lot on, still learning tons on French kit with all the posts here and folks... It does look like in the late 40's and early 50's the French reused everything they could get their hands on, and curious had to stamp them with their approval stamps. By Algeria my units main impression seems that French industry had caught up and produced French unique items to replace all the foreign stuff in uniform and kit. Though they still used a lot of US coms kit, vehicles, Armor, and weapons, though many of these where being produced under French license and French data plates replacing english ones. |
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Post by lew on Sept 14, 2015 12:17:55 GMT -5
You are correct on all points. French industry caught up in the latter years of Indo and then their wares dominated in Algeria and squeezed out the foreign material as it was used up and not replaced. However, the US supplied a lot of equipment through the Military Assistance Program, so American equipment continued to come in until 1960 or so. And of course, the French licensed many items.
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Post by rasperguy on Sept 14, 2015 13:05:41 GMT -5
You are correct on all points. French industry caught up in the latter years of Indo and then their wares dominated in Algeria and squeezed out the foreign material as it was used up and not replaced. However, the US supplied a lot of equipment through the Military Assistance Program, so American equipment continued to come in until 1960 or so. And of course, the French licensed many items. Best I can venture US items where: 1. Radio equipment, man pack and hand held radios, telephone sets 2. Artillery,recoilless rifles, and Light/Heavy mortars 3. Light and Heavy Machine guns (browning M1 and M2) 4. Ammo 5. Jeeps and Duce1/2 trucks 6. Light Armor, Cars and Tanks 7. Airplanes, fighters and transport By Algeria French Military industries seemed to make under license or re-data plating all Com equipment, Ammo, and Jeeps. Unclear on small arms, trucks and artillery, I would venture no, just de-data plated. Armor and Armored cars by the 60's France was already starting to produce their own stuff. When France left active NATO participation it looks like the amount of US kit going to them really tapered off, just after the loss of Algeria and DeGualle forever changing France's image to a unpopular anti-militery one we are all familiar in the US now. Though it does look like the French still copy a lot of our stuff still. They also hold onto old stuff longer. In 2001 when I was the Intel chief to the coalition at CENTCOM CMD, the French officers where still wearing leather buckle boots, even the Poles had better more modern boots to wear  I would show them my French kit and they remarked on how they still used these items when they where a little younger in the 80's and early 90's. |
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Post by lew on Sept 14, 2015 19:37:57 GMT -5
You're well on the right track. Pertaining to the influx of US aid in the mid-50's: 1) Both my A/N PRC-10 and PRC-6 clones are a French-made copy, but they certainly used US radios, especially the larger vehicle-borne units- GRC-9 and the like. 2) French mortars were more common, but all recoiless rifles were the US 57 and 75mm. M1 105mm's were used. 3) Yep. The both the 1919A4 and M2 were common fixtures on vehicles. The 1919A6 was sometimes encountered in Indo. 4) All the .45 ACP was American-made, but some of the .30-06 and .30 Carbine (and all the 7.5 and 9mm) was French. I think they made at least some of their own .50 BMG at the time, too. 5), 6) GMC and Dodge trucks, but most of the Jeeps were actually Hotchkiss 201's. M-8 Greyhound armored car, M-24 Chaffee, and some M4 Shermans 7) A-1 Skyraider, T-6 Texan, F-4U Corsair, B-26 Invader; S-19, S-34, and H-21 helicopters. Some Leftover C-47's, but those and the Ju-52's were largely relegated to jump training at Pau and Blida. The Nord 2501 did most of the heavy lifting in Algeria. I'd have to look up the numbers, but tons of M1 Carbines and Rifles (upwards of 200,000 each), M1 and M1A1 SMG's, and M1917 rifles arrived in France and North Africa in the mid-50's. The French adored the Carbine. The Daimler (British) Ferret Scout Car saw heavy use with the para motorized units- 13e RDP and 1e RHP. (I might just be willing to kill for one.  ) The Mle. 65 boot you saw them wearing has been around unchanged since it replaced the Mle. 52 beginning in 1965. I gave my pair to my brother. There's not much to it: rubber and leather. They're fine once they're broken in (or rather they break in your feet), but I'd definitely prefer a more modern, lighter boot. They're catching up, but then most other militaries look fairly archaic when cmpared to the US since they've been at the forefront of combat and gear development for the last decade and some change. De Gaulle really lost his interest in the military after April, 1961 when certain members thereof tried to oust him. He had a little bit of both pride and ego.  Some reading material of particular relevance: The First Helicopter War: Logistics and Mobility in Algeria, 1954-1962 by Charles R. Schrader France, The United States, and the Algerian War by Irwin M. Wall |
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Post by rasperguy on Sept 14, 2015 19:49:26 GMT -5
Actually most people don't recognize this as it is real WWII Italian material, WWII Italian camo was more brown and used a subdued more olive green, vs the late 50's and 60's Italian camo crap you see all over the surplus stores today. It is also in the right pattern. I do WWII Italian as well in my past. I really don't know what environment that crappy post war Italian camo camouflages you in, possible a Pimps bedroom but that neo-green and bright brown is a clue it is post war and worthless. The reason most folks never see the WWII Italian real camo is it is highly coveted by unscrupulous WWII German reenacters who chop it up to make SS camo items and uniforms. The Italian camo was very popular with the Germans. This has made getting a original Italian war material camo both rare and expensive. This is an excellent reference on the differences on war time and post war Italian camo, as you can see the camo pictured is correct WWII Italian color. You can look up German camo here as well The below is the more common found neo-color Italian camo post war crap, NOT correct for us in any of our reenactments, IndoChina or Algeria... hope this helps Some one is selling a WWII French shelter half set, if anyone is interested in checking out how it looks. As you can see it does bear resemblance to the Italian shelter half in early thread post. I believe the Italians copied it from their alliance with the French in WWI, as a WWI Italian shelter quarter looks nothing like a WWII Italian one. You can see the unique khaki canvas the French used, which seems to be carried over to the zelts and later khaki pup tents. www.ebay.com/itm/1940S-Original-and-Rare-French-tent-set-M-1935-/252090656057?hash=item3ab1c62539 |
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Post by rasperguy on Sept 14, 2015 19:52:36 GMT -5
You're well on the right track. Pertaining to the influx of US aid in the mid-50's: 1) Both my A/N PRC-10 and PRC-6 clones are a French-made copy, but they certainly used US radios, especially the larger vehicle-borne units- GRC-9 and the like. 2) French mortars were more common, but all recoiless rifles were the US 57 and 75mm. M1 105mm's were used. 3) Yep. The both the 1919A4 and M2 were common fixtures on vehicles. The 1919A6 was sometimes encountered in Indo. 4) All the .45 ACP was American-made, but some of the .30-06 and .30 Carbine (and all the 7.5 and 9mm) was French. I think they made at least some of their own .50 BMG at the time, too. 5), 6) GMC and Dodge trucks, but most of the Jeeps were actually Hotchkiss 201's. M-8 Greyhound armored car, M-24 Chaffee, and some M4 Shermans 7) A-1 Skyraider, T-6 Texan, F-4U Corsair, B-26 Invader; S-19, S-34, and H-21 helicopters. Some Leftover C-47's, but those and the Ju-52's were largely relegated to jump training at Pau and Blida. The Nord 2501 did most of the heavy lifting in Algeria. I'd have to look up the numbers, but tons of M1 Carbines and Rifles (upwards of 200,000 each), M1 and M1A1 SMG's, and M1917 rifles arrived in France and North Africa in the mid-50's. The French adored the Carbine. The Daimler (British) Ferret Scout Car saw heavy use with the para motorized units- 13e RDP and 1e RHP. (I might just be willing to kill for one. ) The Mle. 65 boot you saw them wearing has been around unchanged since it replaced the Mle. 52 beginning in 1965. I gave my pair to my brother. There's not much to it: rubber and leather. They're fine once they're broken in (or rather they break in your feet), but I'd definitely prefer a more modern, lighter boot. They're catching up, but then most other militaries look fairly archaic when cmpared to the US since they've been at the forefront of combat and gear development for the last decade and some change. De Gaulle really lost his interest in the military after April, 1961 when certain members thereof tried to oust him. He had a little bit of both pride and ego. Some reading material of particular relevance: The First Helicopter War: Logistics and Mobility in Algeria, 1954-1962 by Charles R. Schrader France, The United States, and the Algerian War by Irwin M. Wall Great read |
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I would show them my French kit and they remarked on how they still used these items when they where a little younger in the 80's and early 90's. 
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