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Post by Dujardin on Jan 24, 2015 21:32:24 GMT -5
Bonjour gars,
I'm a reenactor based in Seattle, USA and I'm currently in the early research and planning stages of putting together my Indochina kit. I became interested in French history in college and after watching Schoendoerffer's Dien Bien Phu and reading Bernard Fall's Hell In A Very Small Place, I became hooked on the Indochina conflict.
I've tentatively decided on the 8e BPC as my unit impression, though I'm also considering Légion étrangère units -- my interest lies mainly in the late stages of the war.
Anyway, I hope to get to know everyone and share my impression when it finally comes together. Hope to be picking up my MAS 36 sometime in the near future!
À bientôt, Dujardin
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Post by lew on Jan 25, 2015 13:35:32 GMT -5
Howdy and welcome aboard. Member "craigtx" is in Washington. He'll probably be stepping in here soon. He and I are basically the only active members, but we check in often to interact with the transients that pass through. There's a lot of good information here, so do browse around. I'm in Michigan, but I'll be relocating to Arizona before the year is out (a perfect landscape to mimic Algeria, I may add).
I have a decent 1e RCP 1950-1953 impression with my British Windroof set (eBay member "panzerfaust1943"), M1 helmet with "Extreme-Orient" liner and suspension and other kit. 8e BPC (8e Choc) is my other focus. I have a Denison Smock (eBay member "combat1984") and can either use the Windproof pants or US M42 camo pants, of which I plan to pick up a set. Doursoux.com has reproduction three-piece bérets rouges et bérets verts which are perfect for Indochina-era paras colonial and Légion Êtrangère.
My main interest, however, is in the Algeria War and with the following units: 11e BPC (11e Choc), 15e RTS/75eRIMa, 13e RDP, and 1e RCP. Most of my research and interest is geared towards this conflict, but much of it carries over to Indochina.
Read Bernard Fall's Street Without Joy and Ted Morgan's Valley of Death. The latter expounds more on the political aspect of Dien Bien Phu in a manner that Fall's book couldn't hope to touch simply due to Mr. Morgan's better access to American and French archives and the passage of time which has brought far more information to light. Raymond Guyader's The French Foreign Legion in Indochina 1946-1956, as well as Les Paras Français en Indochine 1945-1954 and Les Paras Français en Algérie 1954-1962 by Éric Adam and Patrice Pavetta are indispensable works for the Indo/Algérie enthusiast.
Don't be afraid to ask questions here. We'll be sure to do our best to answer.
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Salut!
Jan 25, 2015 16:46:23 GMT -5
Post by Dujardin on Jan 25, 2015 16:46:23 GMT -5
Good to hear from you. I feared this forum might be dead!
Thanks for the info as well -- I found a copy of Les Paras Français en Indochine '45-54 and have been poring over it ever since. Truly a wealth of information. Both Street Without Joy and Valley of Death are definitely on my to-read list.
Incidentally, Algeria is something of an interest of mine as well. Suppose it goes hand-in-hand with Indo.
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Post by lew on Jan 26, 2015 9:06:22 GMT -5
From the French point of view, the two were more like one fairly seamless conflict rather than two distinct wars. Algeria went a lot better for the French, though, at least militarily speaking. Suez was a bitter disappointment. If you haven't done so, pick up Les Paras Français en Algérie. The two books are really two volumes of the same work, and, while each focuses on the conflict in the title, a lot of information about the other is contained in each. In this thread I wrote up a shopping list for the beginner Algeria collector. As lengthy as it seems, the French forces were far more standardized after 1954, so collecting for that war is a bit easier. Another benefit is that the gear made then, as contrasted to Indochina, was generally of higher quality (not that earlier French-made stuff is crap; it's certainly not) and made in larger quantity, so surplus gear, if used, is generally in better shape, if not unissued surplus. Plus, the desert is usually not as hard on equipment as the jungle. Alistaire Horne's A Savage War of Peace is widely regarded as the best English language primer on the Algerian War. I will be writing up a guide to Algerian War backpacks (sac à dos) and satchels (musettes) today and should have it posted by tomorrow. Have you acquired any kit at all thus far? Cheers!
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Salut!
Jan 26, 2015 13:36:18 GMT -5
Post by craigtx on Jan 26, 2015 13:36:18 GMT -5
Howdy Dujardin!
Welcome! I'm Craig and am based south of you in Vancouver. Good to see someone in the PNW! My main focus is the Legion 1e & 2e BEP and 13e DBLE, but I could easily do BPC as well. I've been in contact with a guy that might be interested in doin' a Indo display at Armed Forces Day at Ft. Lewis. If you're interested I can put you in the loop on details if it comes about.
Otherwise, I've been collectin' kit and doin' research.
You might also want to consider gettin' a copy of "The French Foreign Legion in Indochina, 1946-1956: History Uniforms Headgear Insignia Weapons Equipment" by Raymond Guyader.
Feel free to ask questions and settle in. Steve and I are the most active and check in fairly frequently and can answer your questions. It'll be nice to have another active member.
Craig
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Salut!
Jan 26, 2015 23:50:44 GMT -5
Post by Dujardin on Jan 26, 2015 23:50:44 GMT -5
Thanks for the info, guys.
At the moment I just have washover from my Brit Para / Airlanding kit -- Denison smock, etc. -- and knick-knacky bits I've picked up since my interest was piqued. But I've decided to get serious recently and I've got a frogskin jacket on the way. Will break down and pick up a pair of windproofs from panzerfaust1943 at some point soon. Wish I had bought them from WPG when Jerry had them in stock for half the price. C'est la vie.
For the most part I've tracked down nearly all my essential kit, it's just a matter of trying to go easy on the wallet and space my purchases out (the reenactor's lament, eh?).
And Craig, I'm that guy! Armed Forces Day is my goal for putting together a solid display kit. As promised, will keep you informed of what's going on there.
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Salut!
Jan 27, 2015 9:19:34 GMT -5
Post by craigtx on Jan 27, 2015 9:19:34 GMT -5
Color me surprised! Small universe... I couldn't dredge up a name from memory, and I was too lazy to go back through all the facebook posts... Have you seen the Indo para facebook page?
Anywho, if you need any help with kit etc. just let me know. I'll go back through the posts and PM you on facebook with my contact info.
Craig
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Salut!
Jan 27, 2015 10:42:28 GMT -5
Post by lew on Jan 27, 2015 10:42:28 GMT -5
Looks like you are well on your way for kit. Accumulating the rest shouldn't bee too difficult.
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Salut!
Jan 28, 2015 9:03:40 GMT -5
Post by craigtx on Jan 28, 2015 9:03:40 GMT -5
Yeah, definitely a good start. There's a lot of ijnformation of this forum as well. Be sure to give it a good look as well.
Craig
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Salut!
Feb 25, 2015 12:09:12 GMT -5
Post by Dujardin on Feb 25, 2015 12:09:12 GMT -5
Howdy.
My impression's coming together nicely, I've got my jacket, trousers, para beret badge, period glasses, some fieldgear. Beret rouge trois parties is somewhere in the postal netherworld between France and my house.
Couple of questions, if you'll entertain them -- where have you guys picked up your helmet chinstraps? The WWII leather para chin-cups and the Vietnam-era chinstraps are all i can seem to dig up.
Also, any suggestions on a good source for boots? I'm planning on picking up a pair of repro M43 double buckles from one of my usual vendors but I just thought I'd ask if there's any recommended alternatives for late-war Indo.
Thanks guys.
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Salut!
Feb 26, 2015 11:28:05 GMT -5
Post by craigtx on Feb 26, 2015 11:28:05 GMT -5
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Post by lew on Feb 26, 2015 14:26:37 GMT -5
If you want a complete helmet liner, I picked up my sous casque de M1 modifée CEFEO from ebay.fr for 75€, which is a bit cheaper than the Normandy link. The US WW2 straps were used, but the CEFEO straps would be more correct.
It looks like all the M43 boots come from one or two manufacturers, regardless of who's selling. The M43's a good choice. I'll be getting some soon. Man The Line and At The Front both carry repro M43's, as do a whole bunch of others. A Google search will turn up a few. Pick up a pair of Palladium Pataugas (Hi Pampa, color OTAN) and have all your footwear concerns covered.
Make sure to oil the boots. I recommend Pecards. Neatsfoot oil should be avoided (deposits salt crystals in the leather which will eventually cause it to degrade if used any). I almost learned that the hard way and am currently washing and re-oiling all five pairs of my Mle. 52 boots.
What jacket and trousers did you go with?
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Post by Dujardin on Feb 28, 2015 17:21:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the links and the tips. Was going to ask about paratugas as well, nice.
I went with a US Army HBT camo jacket and got my "sausage skin" trousers from panzerfaust on ebay.
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Salut!
Mar 3, 2015 9:18:38 GMT -5
Post by lew on Mar 3, 2015 9:18:38 GMT -5
Fantastic. From where did you get the HBT's? I'm looking at eventually piecing together a late '40's 1e RCP impression to go with the later uniform (peau de saucisson). Speaking of which, did you go with the Type 1 (hood, drawstrings, brown-dominant) Windproofs or the Type 2 (green dominant, seen moreso in ALgeria, PZ's have the zipper)?
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Salut!
Mar 6, 2015 0:24:59 GMT -5
Post by Dujardin on Mar 6, 2015 0:24:59 GMT -5
I picked up the Army HBT jacket from Hessen Antique because ATF was out of my size -- pretty sure it's just a generic repro, available widely. Not a bad piece from what I can tell, though admittedly I'm usually wearing wool instead of cotton...
As for the windproofs, I only got the pants. I think they're Type 1 though.
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Salut!
Mar 6, 2015 9:54:06 GMT -5
Post by lew on Mar 6, 2015 9:54:06 GMT -5
I priced out an early-War 1e RCP impression. Holy crap, all that US gear adds up quick. I'll focus on what I have: post-1952. Good to know the source, though.
Since you're interested in 8e Choc, you might know this: did they use the red beret from their inception in 1951 or was there another color used first? I saw a black beret with an 8e BPC insignia in lieu of an airborne insignia. I doubt that it's genuine, but I want to be sure.
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Salut!
Mar 7, 2015 0:08:46 GMT -5
Post by Dujardin on Mar 7, 2015 0:08:46 GMT -5
That one on eBay? Not sure what to think of that.
To be honest I was always under the impression that black berets were reserved for Vietnamese autochtone units. I've come across nothing that suggests 8e BPC *specifically* used them, but apparently battalions with the "choc" designation were given black berets following the end of WWII. With the 8e transitioning from "coloniaux" to "choc" in '53 it doesn't seem likely that there'd be overlap, but who knows? /not an expert opinion
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Post by lew on Mar 8, 2015 19:07:15 GMT -5
That's the one, and that's what I remembered with the Vietnamese units and 1e Choc (black beret from 1943-1952). I know they had the red beret at DBP, so I think the black beret and 8e Choc insignia combo is a fantasy piece.
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Salut!
Mar 22, 2015 10:13:15 GMT -5
Post by Étienne on Mar 22, 2015 10:13:15 GMT -5
With ATF, just remember that their US HBT clothing is quite oversized...they make waist sizes sized to modern specs and the lengths are a generic long (34" inseam on trousers). And with their Army HBT's they make them sized like the originals (well, somewhat) in that they are meant to be worn over the army wool uniform. For instance, I wear a waist size 31-32 but have ordered all trousers I've acquired from them in waist size 30, as even when shrunk they fit me perfect (when not worn as over trousers, that is). They'll try and tell you that you should order the larger waist size but don't do it! I'm shorter (5'8"), so I always have to modify the length of tops and bottoms, as the tops usually reach almost to my knees if/when I order a medium. The quality is very nice and their prices are usually hard to beat. Shipping is fast but not cheap, so try and do a combined order if possible. And if you order over $150 worth of toys, shipping is free. Their sales (and close outs) are quite amazing, btw, so always check that section before you order. I "need" a P42 USMC camo top, so I'll check out Hessian (thanks for the tip). I should have gotten one from ATF when they were on sale a bit ago, as they were only $30 or $40. I'm a 8BPC fan too (and 1BEP), but I live in North Carolina so I don't have anyone local to play with Good luck!
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Salut!
Mar 23, 2015 9:35:38 GMT -5
Post by lew on Mar 23, 2015 9:35:38 GMT -5
Well done. A US camo top and the Windproof trousers will have you set for most of the units- primarily colonial and Legion paras- for the early '50's.
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Salut!
Mar 24, 2015 10:10:23 GMT -5
Post by craigtx on Mar 24, 2015 10:10:23 GMT -5
Steve is correct. I'm just an overachiever. I picked up a full set of just about all varieties short of the elusive lizard 47/52s. I have the opposite problem of you Etienne, I'm 6'4" and everything's too short usually as far as originals and some repros go ...
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Salut!
Mar 24, 2015 10:36:17 GMT -5
Post by Étienne on Mar 24, 2015 10:36:17 GMT -5
Ha! I definitely feel your pain (but again, the opposite problem).
It's like trying to find an original pair of 47 trousers that fit me...all of them are too short and the waist sizes are too big (I typically find trousers that are 36 to 40 inches in the waist with 28 inch inseams). But of course as with most/much military surplus, all the odd sizes didn't get used up. So we're stuck with them for eternity.
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Salut!
Mar 25, 2015 13:25:20 GMT -5
Post by Étienne on Mar 25, 2015 13:25:20 GMT -5
Speaking of clothing and cloth, I don't suppose anyone's ever found a supply of repro Brit "windproof" material by chance?
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Salut!
Mar 25, 2015 16:38:37 GMT -5
Post by lew on Mar 25, 2015 16:38:37 GMT -5
Contact Panzerfaust and see if they can/will steer you to their supplier. What project did you have in mind? I pulled the trigger on Man The Line's P42 trousers and jackets. I really dig the pattern. The green and brown patterns remind me of Crye's latest Multicam offerings- Tropic and Arid, respectively. Yes, I am a whore for Multicam.
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Salut!
Mar 25, 2015 17:10:19 GMT -5
Post by Étienne on Mar 25, 2015 17:10:19 GMT -5
I've thought of that, but I was thinking they wouldn't want to part with any since I'd be making my own stuff out of it. But I guess there's no harm in asking! I'd like to make some windproof trousers (as I can't quite part with $100 for them, although I might just have to), but what I really want to do is make some 8BPC caps. I bought some cheap US HBT camo trousers from ATF that don't fit, and have deconstructed them to make a few 8BPC caps out of. I've started making my pattern but it's not right yet. Cool! Let me know how they turn out. I'd like to get a P42 jacket but am not sure which one to get yet, and a few suppliers are out of stock. Have you seen this website before?: m1pencil.wordpress.com/2011/09/20/p42-camouflage-jacket-comparision-original-vs-repro It's a very thoughtful comparison, and I've been happy following his advice before. Also, WWII Impressions has P42 trousers on closeout: www.wwiiimpressions.com/closeouts.htmIf I start seeing multicam windproofs in any of your Algeria photos...
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Post by lew on Mar 25, 2015 19:40:30 GMT -5
I came across that site a while back. Good presentation. I'll see how MTL's stack up.
Good luck on yer quest.
Well, you wouldn't see the MC windproofs. Duh. I'll have pictures of my kit up when I see some foliage around here, plus I'm waiting on a few pieces to come in.
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