Not a unit, but here anyway...

[cookie]

I don't belong to any French Indochina groups as I already take a very active part in a WWII group. But I do have a very keen interest in the subject, which will hopefully be featured in a Skirmish Magazine article here in the UK sometime in 2009. I'm still researching the subject and sourcing the right kit.

Its amazing what you can do in the back yard in the middle of December!

6e BPC at Tu Le, 1952:






Obviously the rifle is not a CR39 (and I still need a sling for it), but some concessions need to be made!

6e BPC at Lang Son, 1953:



I do have the kit for a 'Lizard 47/52' impression at Dien Bien Phu (in my avatar picture).

[Turner]

Hi Cookie!
It seems that you had some fun in the back yard!
Very nice pics!
What kind of musette bag are you carrying?
Regards, Turner

[sgtjeanvaljean]

Cookie,

Damm fine job.

Sgt. Valjean

[lt13demi]

Magnifique!

Renault

[grog]

Fantastic pics!

[grog]

Question about the beret in the first pic. Exactly what color is it? It looks maroon, but not sure if that's due to the lighting. I've never been able to pin down the exact color of French Paratrooper beret worn in Indochine.

Is it closer to the current French red berets, or closer to the WW2 maroon beret? From pics I've seen of "originals" for sale on eBay, it's almost impossible to tell.

[cookie]

Cheers for the kind words guys,

From what I can tell the berets issued in 1952 were red, not maroon. I've had to get a reproduction British WWII beret to substitute for now as I have not been able to source a large crown red one (like German Bundeswehr???).
It is entirely possible for British Maroon WWII pattern berets to have been worn by French paras in Indochina, they got everything else (denison smocks, '37 web, weapons, windproofs...).


After the armistice, 1954. Red or maroon???

The Musette pack is an absolutely MINT condition TAP Mle 50 pattern one I got from a French Trader here in the UK in August at the 'Military Odyssey' show. It was £50 (but worth every penny). I'm now after a 'touts armes' Mle 50 one.

[grog]

I certainly wouldn't rule out maroon berets being used. Even in some B&W pics I've noticed paras with berets where the shade seems a bit darker than someone else in the pic, so it could be a unit with some wearing red and some wearing maroon.

Thanks for the pic in the last post. There is a surplus store here in town that sells red berets that are very close, if not dead on, to that shade of red. Most red berets you find here are the bright scarlet color designed for drill teams, ROTC Color Guards, etc.

The berets I found are a bit thinner than most military berets, but at least they have a liner to add a bit of weight and are of one piece construction. They also have vent holes on the wrong side as they are designed to be pulled to the right in the US and British style, but the badge may cover those. They should do until something better comes along (which I don't see happening anytime soon).

[cookie]

I'll keep looking in 'bargain bins' at shows for a suitable one, you never know...

[lt13demi]

"The Musette pack is an absolutely MINT condition TAP Mle 50 pattern one"

Cookie,

Can you post a better photo of this musette for us???

Merci!!!!

Renault

[cookie]

This musette was featured in an excellent article by Denis Lassus:

It is the bottom centre of the lower right-hand picture. I have also just ordered a mint 'toutes arms' musette, which is on the right of the one indicated. Although not as practical as the TAP musette, it was worn in equal measure in Indo by the paras.

[lt13demi]

Merci!

Great pics!

Renault

[Legion Etrangere]

I am assuming that maroon berets could be worn because of the French Para's association with the British S.A.S. In 1944, when the S.A.S. was brigaded together in the UK prior to OVERLORD, all battalions (British, French, Belgian, etc.) were brought together and odd uniforms and headgear tossed in favor of the maroon beret. This was hated by the S.A.S. because of the tan beret's history with the S.A.S. in the desert but all units complied wit the order (except for Irish commander of 1 SAS!) I have read that a lot of that stuff carried over - so I would not be surpised to see the WWII british (wide crown) beret worn by metro or coloniale para's. FICW was catch as catch can and that certainly would be within the scope of the quartermaster hell these units faced.

/martini/

[sapper44]

I have read that some of the paras had berets made from camo parachute silk? Ok for the field i guess, but I don't see how hey would have gotten away with it at a fort.
Christian

[Legion Etrangere]

good point christian.

the great thing about the legion, however, was regardless of how different looking everyone was, when it came to camerone day or an awards formation, funeral, etc., the turn-out would be cookie-cutter and squared away.

/martini/

[cookie]

There is a very widely published photo of two paras at Dien Bien Phu in early 1954. They have just been awarded Crois de Guerre TOE's. The one on the left in shirtsleeves is wearing a field made baseball cap in US camo. The one on the right, in a 47/52 camo smock, is wearing a field made US camo beret. They are NCO's and in a fortified position surrounded by officers and visited regularly by top brass. I don't think anyone cared about clothing and headgear outside of the barracks or parades.

[grog]

To help clarify the beret issue, on one of the first pages pages of the book I mentioned in another thread yesterday there is a color pic of a large group of French soldiers disembarking from a boat somewhere. There are three paras in berets and none of the three are the same shade. One is almost maroon, one is red, and one is a lighter shade of red.

[cookie]

- I've included my colonial 1926 Adrian but I've not seen any in pictures.

My growing collection of Mle 50 TAP web gear.

Miscellanious items used by French forces in Indochina. Centre: Armee Francais 1930's musette for FM24/29 magazines.

Top: the TAP 'musette d'alligament' Mle 50.
Botton: 'Toutes armes' musette Mle 50.


Above: Front and rear views of the Sac a dos' Type TAP Mle 50/53, with rigid frame.

47/52 Tenue 'Lizard'. WPG reproduction.

British 1942 Windproof suit. Reproduction smock with added zip front, and original trousers.

US M43 Army pattern 'Frogskin'/'Duck hunter' camouflage jacket. Reproduction.

[lt13demi]

"I've included my colonial 1926 Adrian but I've not seen any in pictures."

Page 152 of the photo book;

"The History of the French Foreign Legion from 1831 to the Present Day" by David Jordan

Shows what are identified as "Legionnaires'" all wearing Adrians; one armed with a 24/29, one with a MAT 49 and one with I think a MAS 36 LG48 with a M48 type rifle grenade in place on the muzzle. The MAT 49 armed individual is also wearing P37 webbing. They are in a dugout defensive position . Looks like this pic was taken somewhere in the vicinity of Hanoi maybe. I don't know why I think that...... Maybe I read it somewhere......

I think I've also see this pic in the "French ECPAD" site. I'll have to go back and look again.

Renault

[cookie]

Cheers Renault. I got the Adrian for my WWII Free French impression. It was in a bargain bin for $25!

[lt13demi]

I thought this photo might have been confused with an Algeria pic because I've see lots of pics of Adrians in use there in the 50's. But these three copains appear to be holed up in a defensive posture in front of what looks like a rice paddy!

Kinda rules out Algeria !

Renault

[Turner]

Yep, just looked at the page. I've got also an Adrian helmet for my (growing) 1940 and 13.DBLE/Free French Troops impressions.
But the Anchor emblem for colonial troops wasn't used by Legion units, I believe. On pics of 1940 I've seen most helmets with the normal early (i.e.WWI) grenade emblem and as Free French the emblems was often removed.

Nice collection, cookie!
How comfortable is the 'Sac a dos' Type TAP Mle 50/53, with rigid frame? I've read that they were not liked by the troops and that instead of them the earlier mountain Bergam rucksacks were favoured. I was offered one of these but I thought this isn't such a common or liked article, so it is not too important to have.

Btw. the musette TAP 50 is to my knowledge a musette TAP 50/51 or musette TAP 50 2nd version.

Regards, Turner

[cookie]

Turner,

The 'Sac a dos' is mightily uncomfortable to wear! It also has a bewildering array of straps, buckles, zips and drawstrings. I have yet to figure out how to properly fix the sac to the metal frame. It also has a very long length of rough brown web that comes out of the side of the sac and ends in a RAPCO buckle, which fixes onto the other side, across the main compartment, maybe it has something to do with attaching the sac to your gear when jumping froma plane (). I bought it as it was in mint condition and was only 60 euros.

I know the TAP musette is the 2nd pattern as the pocket on the side is closed with a simple button. The 1st pattern ones had a lift-the-dot closure and the flap was somewhat triangular.

The only thing I'm still really looking for is the Mle 50 webbed belt. The one with the Brit '37 style buckle. I saw one on ebay the other day for 75 euros, so I'll keep looking.

I'm also on the llokout for a better US frogskin jacket. I don't like the colour or print of the one I have. I think there is too much green in the background and the browns of the spots are not light enough.

[Turner]

I saw also a very nice TAP 50 belt on ebay. The auction is still running. Try auction no. 320340391783 and be astonished for the price!

A friend of my group re-converted a TAP 50/53 by adding british buckles. I think that's what I'll also do if the TAP 50 belts are that expensive!!

The closure of the TAP 50 1st & 2nd models are also different. The first model has the same straps and buckles as US M1936 musette bags. And like at the US pattern the closing buckles of the first model are fixed at the flap.
Are your shoulder straps also very short? They are very short on my 2nd model. On my TAP 55 musette they are much tboo long, however.
Regards, Turner

[Turner]

It does not look like as if the inventors of the rucksack cared too much for shoulder, neck or back padding.
The two knobs on the sides of the carrying frame, outside atthe hip, where the hip "padding" ends look similar to British Bergen rucksacks. So maybe there are some flaps with which the Rucksack body can be fixed to the frame?
Like here:



Regards, Turner

[cookie]

Cheers Turner,

There are leather straps for attaching the sac to the frame as in your pictures. The various bits are all identical. However, the leather tabs are fairly short and don't stretch round to the metal knobs very well!
I was also thinking of concerting an early RAPCO belt into a Mle 50 one. I think the buckle from the British M44 belt is a better shape than the P37, it is also blackened steel, not bright brass. I've got a PRYM rivet gun for re-securing the webbing round the buckle as well.

[lt13demi]

Cookie,

That sounds like a very worthy idea!!!!! I really dislike the RAPCO buckle. It's a pain. Keep us posted on the project!

Regards!

Renault

[oggy]

Have you seen the Belgique Web Belt - the Buckle is 37 Type, but in a blackened brass.

[cookie]

The Brit 37, 44 and 58 web buckles are a lot easier to get hold of and cheaper than Belgian webbing. I can muck about with 37 pattern buckles first as they're dirt cheap.
Looking at the Mle 50 and RAPCO belts, the Mle 50 buckle is held in place by 2 rivets, whereas the RAPCO is with three rivets. Annoying but not impossible to convert. On my RAPCO belts the press stud is inverted and wil need to be changed around. The 'keepers' are also notoriously thin (3mm wide) on the Mle 50 where they are 5mm on the RAPCO.

Turner, the musette straps are very short. I have them at their limit and they're just about long enough!

[Turner]

My friend used a '58 buckle for the adaption.
For my adaption I've found a nice Belgian belt on the last Ciney fair. It is new and has cost only €5!
Have a look:


So, now I only have to get another Mle 53 belt.
What do you think of this belt? Could be Israeli???
But were there tan Mle1950 belts? (khaki-nazi, again!!)

Regards, Turner