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Post by cookie on Aug 23, 2009 6:12:45 GMT -5
My newly purchased 'theatre-made' Indochina war cloth 'A' frames and chincup arrangement.  I bought this from the eBay.fr boutique 'Normandy.accessories'. Very good quality and very accurate to what the originals were. For total authenticity they need to be riveted into the helmet liner. Unfortunately this involves removing the original rivets, lifting out the canvas head band, placing in the 'A' frame straps, the canvas band, and then re rivetting it in place. I've used a small amount of black string tightly notted into the right places to create the effect, without permenantly altering the liner. I'll keep my eyes open for a cheap Belgian or Korean war liner and maybe rivet them into that. |
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Post by oggy on Aug 23, 2009 6:17:30 GMT -5
I've got a Modern Belgique Liner sitting doing nowt if you want it...
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Post by cookie on Aug 23, 2009 9:12:51 GMT -5
Thanks, but I'm going to browse the bargain bins at Detling. Last year there were some real cheap liners knocking about.
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Post by grog on Aug 23, 2009 15:10:56 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. Looks very good. I took a look at the pics the seller had on ebay.fr as well. A tad pricey at 45 Euros, but not bad when you consider there is no other source. He could easily have charged more. I think I might make the investment.
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Post by cookie on Aug 24, 2009 7:10:41 GMT -5
Like you say, I've not seen anything like it offered anywhere else. He even includes the rivets you need to apply them to the liner, which is nice.
It's made my impression just that little bit more 'Indo'...
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Post by bellumbill on Dec 3, 2009 17:35:22 GMT -5
Cookie -
I don't know that it is totally necessary to remove the head band rivets inside the helmet liner to attach the a-frames - I haven't seen too many FICW modified helmets, but I have seen plently of WWII liners that were modified for airborne use where the a-frames were simply riveted to the liner without being underneath the headband liner. I think it was simply much more field expedient to take a regular infantry liner and pop a set of a-frames right in, et voila, instant jump liner.
I just purchased the set from Normandy.accessories and will probably do just that with an old, regular infantry liner.
Best to all!
Bill K.
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Post by cookie on Dec 11, 2009 10:03:15 GMT -5
Cheers Bill,
I looked into that and played around with the placement of the A frames - they have to be in a particular place otherwise they look really silly and don't fit right. They can be placed right up close to the head band rivets and look ok, its just a pain to get in there and fix them in.
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Post by bellumbill on Dec 11, 2009 11:20:10 GMT -5
Cookie -
I guess I'll find out soon enough, I have a set on the way. I also have a liner ready to go - I have pulled the old US style A-Frames out, which were "field" attached just next to the suspension brackets, not underneath. We'll see how it works out - I'll post pics when complete.
BTW, I am not too concerned with how things look too much as the way I understand the situation is that the French Army was throwing these things together pretty haphazardly to fill a need fast - I am not too convinced they were that concerned with the perfect look or fit (like most armies) - Honestly, I think sometimes reenactors a bit too concerned with "perfection", when really this stuff was pretty shoddily worn, put together, etc....
My worthless two centimes!
Best to all
Bill K.
Merci!
Bill K.
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Post by bellumbill on Dec 16, 2009 18:49:09 GMT -5
Ok, just received the kit from France. Haven't installed the A-frames yet, just fiddled with positioning. I can tell right off the bat that the angle of the A-frames is not cut at the correct angle for a US helmet, at least not the set I have. The angle is just slightly wider than a US set of A-frames. So, even if you do install these under the US liner suspension rivets they will look a little "dodgy". That is, they will have to be slightly bent in order to line up correctly. Does that make sense? Given that I am not going to install mine underneath the US liner suspension but use the old rivet holes where someone in the US army (or reenactor) took a Korean War liner and attached the A-frames (field expedient style). To do so, I will have to trim the length of the theater made straps slightly and then install. I have to because even though the person that installed the US A-frames took pains to get the rivets as close as he could to the suspension rivets, they are slightly below. Again, the theater made A-frames will still look a bit off as they will have to be bent slightly to be made to fit the rivet points where the old US A-frames were. Below is a photo from the French vendor who sells these repros - I hope it is large enough for you to see how it looks when attached to a helmet. I think you can see how the theater made A-frames are slightly curved as they go up into the liner due to the angle they are cut at. I'll post pics of my helmet when I am done with it.  Merci! Bill K. |
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Dec 16, 2009 19:48:49 GMT -5
Bill:
I would think if the "A" frames are slightly bent, that once they are secured on the chin, the curviture of the straps would look correct.
Also - post the name, URL and price you paid.
Much appreicated Bill! Thanks for the information! ;D
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Post by bellumbill on Dec 16, 2009 21:25:01 GMT -5
I think cookie above mentiond they are sold by "normandy.accessories" shop on ebay France. I think they were around $45 Euros for the kit - two A-frames, cloth chin cup, and four rivets.
Hard to explain how the theater made A-frames fit/don't exactly fit into the liner. The bottom line is that it requires a little finessing to get it to look right. Again, the point I made a above about not having things look too perfect still stands - I'll do the bet I can but won't worry too much if it doesn't look "perfect".
Again, once I get mine done I'll happily post photos.
Merci!
Bill K.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Dec 17, 2009 13:32:06 GMT -5
Hullo Bill:
Many thanks on the post; your correct, Cookie is the person to contact on that. I will have to put out an order to Normandy accessories (I found the site online).
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Post by cookie on Dec 19, 2009 10:13:17 GMT -5
Guys,
If you fit them in the places they're supposed to go they look fine. They don't require any trimming.
I have a photo somewhere of where they're supposed to go inside the liner.
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Post by bellumbill on Dec 19, 2009 12:23:03 GMT -5
Guys, If you fit them in the places they're supposed to go they look fine. They don't require any trimming. I have a photo somewhere of where they're supposed to go inside the liner. Honestly, as you well know, this stuff is really hard to describe online. Cookie, I disagree, though, if I lay the theater made a-frames down exactly how they are cut inside my US liner one of the "arms" going directly over one of the A washers, the other "arm" ends up somewhere behind the nape strap, not anywhere near the second A washer. I'll try and post a pic later. Again, I contend it doesn't really matter because I think these things were installed quickly in the field and probably all had a tremendous amount of variety in where and how they were attached. Thanks again! Bill K. |
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Post by cookie on Dec 20, 2009 7:31:57 GMT -5
Bill, The 'A' frames bought from Normandie.Accessories are supposed to be fitted into place where there are existing rivets. When placed there they look right!!!!!! (See above).  |
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Post by bellumbill on Dec 20, 2009 18:49:30 GMT -5
Cookie - Your helmet looks great, thanks for posting the pic! Below are photos of the kit I received lined up with the original rivets of the liner suspension. As you can see the angle of the theater made straps simply does not fit on the angle that the helmet suspension rivets are. I will have to bend the theater made straps slightly to achieve the correct angle. Maybe you didn't have to with yours, but as you can see I will have to with mine. I don't care, it will look fine, just making a point. I am sure, as with anything reproed like this there are variations - perhaps I just received something slightly different than you? The first photo is the theater made straps with an original US Army A-Frame layered over it - This shows the discrepency with the angle, not much but enough.  These others represent the theater made straps in various positions vis a vis the helmet liner.    |
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Post by cookie on Dec 21, 2009 10:27:27 GMT -5
 The red dots are where the 'A' frames are supposed to be fixed. The theratre made 'A' frames will be of a different shape and size to the US fitted ones as the chin cups are completely different. But at the end of the day whatever you think best. It's your helmet. |
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Post by bellumbill on Dec 21, 2009 13:32:38 GMT -5
I think I have probably made too big of a deal about this, I am really sorry!! If you look at the pics above you will see that I have placed one of the theater made strap ends right over the liner suspension rivet. Looking at the other theater made strap you will see that it does not naturally fit right over the other liner suspension rivet. All I am saying is that I will have to bend the other strap slightly to made it align with the suspension rivet. My point simply was that the theater made straps don't fit EXACTLY with the US liner rivets and that if you purchase one of these you MIGHT have to slightly bend the straps to get them to sit right. That was all I wanted to point out - Of course I have done a poor job explaining myself as usual, so I'll let it go...... Joyeaux Noel to all!!!!!!!!!  Best to all - Bill K. |
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Dec 21, 2009 15:29:13 GMT -5
Bill:
Your wrong! ;D
One of the benefits of being on this forum (as opposed to the others) ... is that you would be vilified and flamed for no reason other than asking for information, asking for a comparison or disagreeing with someone. The moderators on the largest WWII forum will angrily lock the thread and scald the poster.
The FICW forum is lucky to have extremely knowledgeable historians, veterans and milsim recreationists who are gentleman. We are lucky in that regard.
Post away ... post any question you (or others) have. You wont get flamed.
Mick
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Post by bellumbill on Dec 21, 2009 18:38:10 GMT -5
Bill: Your wrong! ;D One of the benefits of being on this forum (as opposed to the others) ... is that you would be vilified and flamed for no reason other than asking for information, asking for a comparison or disagreeing with someone. The moderators on the largest WWII forum will angrily lock the thread and scald the poster. The FICW forum is lucky to have extremely knowledgeable historians, veterans and milsim recreationists who are gentleman. We are lucky in that regard. Post away ... post any question you (or others) have. You wont get flamed. Mick HA! That's good to know!! Merci - Bill K. |
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Post by soldatsoucy1 on Dec 21, 2009 22:15:30 GMT -5
I would like to take just a moment and second what Mercier is saying regarding this list. There is more information within the comments and threads here than I would ever have imagined. Nuances of detail and oodles of information and good discussion. Its a searchable tool. With folks with more authority to comment than I ever will have.
I have been on lists where, although one did not get flamed, there would be days, weeks of comment on the most insipid stuff that did not even pertain to the FICW, Legion, or anything else...other than a bunch of old guys slapping themselves on the backs on how they get it right....when they didnt....passing information to new members as fact....when it wasnt....and wrong on just about every aspect of uniform, insignia, and unit history and deportment that you can imagine.
It was frustrating, time consuming, and as much fun as driving a MAS 36 bayonet through my foot with one hand and flipping the pin of a grenade with the other. I invariably left the group in disgust, frustration, and utter contempt for the whole bunch that participated.
Here, this board is home to individuals that enjoy what they do, know what they are doing, and kindly and benevolently share what they know with us that dont know much yet...but are learning.
Doc.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Dec 22, 2009 11:23:58 GMT -5
Doc,
Thanks for the props.
I was hesitant to say much about it, but the initial foundation of this forum was for a reenacting unit here in Texas which I was a member (for a short time). When I put it together, it was at the request of "the leadereship" of this group and was created in the beginning as a place to learn about the French indochina war. It didn't.
The decision was then made to open the forum to other reenactors and historians across the U.S. and the UK (and now France and beyond); after we did that ... the forum thrived. Not only did the "backslapping", guffaws and AARs of bravery under blank fire stop, but we began learning about the French Indochina War as never before: the uniform, equipment, weapons, the men, material, rations, the intent of its commanders, the enemy. As Doc stated, we probably learned more on this forum from others (from outside Texas) than from anywhere else.
Several months ago, we made the decision to move the forum away from that reenacting unit and make it 'open' to everyone. When we did that, three members of that group quit - that day. I was actually glad to see them go. In time - others went - some with my prodding - all angry that the BBQ, buffet and back slapping had ended and "all this indochina crap started."
In time, we discovered that those of you outside the U.S. and the veterans who served (shaun, etc.) have more knowledge about the war ... have really helped make this forum what it is. We are peresonally thankful to have superb historians and veterans and others on here who contribute their personal knowledge and experience about this conflict: men who served on the ground in indochina/vietnam as well as those in the UK and France who have a keen grasp of the specifics.
We will continue to keep this forum a place for learning, not as a bully pulpit for one group. Again, I must thank all of you for maintaining such a professional attitude during this process.
The 'troublemakers' that were here are now gone. And it could not have come at a better time. 2010 is here and there is more stuff to buy, more history to learn, more friends to make.
My apologies to Bill and Cookie for bogarting time on this thread to preach.
Off soapbox,
Mick
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