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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 10, 2009 11:36:49 GMT -5
Ok, Niv ... you now have YOUR place on the forum! ;D The Official "Trenchguns in Indo-china" parking spot.
BTW, to reiterate what I wrote to you before I ended up accidently deleting it, Gen Tran told me that shotguns were used but from what he could tell, (a.) they were used only in porportion to the ammunition supply; (b.) were used by local forces in ferreting out VM south of Hanoi near Haiphong in operations exclusive in the Delta and (c.) maybe by recce platoons of larger forces in Delta operations. Shotguns are an excellent close-in weapon in the jungle.
My take on his comments were that these could have been weapons issued to local-raised indochinoise companies, police, levies, or tribal irregulars. I am not sure if this is correct as I dont have a weapons TOE ... and will leave it open to others on the forum to help provide some information. I am going to post a question to the guerre d'indochine yahoo forum (the modelers group) and see what I get.
Cookie ... any comment here?
I will ask the ARVN Airborne COL at our next meeting though about trenchguns in Indo-china.
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Post by cookie on Aug 12, 2009 7:54:35 GMT -5
 I know from reading about the Algerian war that Shotgus, of various types, were used by both the FLA/ALN and the French forces. They were certainly used by irregulars and rear echelon French forces. I have not read anywhere about them being used in Indochina and I've not seen any photos. However, I would say that it was highly likely that they were employed by uch units as Partisans, GCMA's, Commandoes and other such rear echelon forces. A war spanning a decade and fought in jungles would have seen some for sure. |
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Post by lt13demi on Aug 13, 2009 22:29:33 GMT -5
As Martini alluded to the statement from the former Viet officer. Their usage would be dependent upon the ammunition supply. Here are some other things to consider..... At this time period there were only two types of shotgun shells available. Paper and full length brass shells. Paper shells were useless as a combat cartridge. (Modern Plastic shells were not the rage until the 60's) The old paper shells were very succeptable to moisture. The get wet and they swell, preventing chambering. They were still useless after they had dried (granted the powder was still good). They remained in a swollen state. Hence the reason the US military used the full length brass case... But that still didn't assure the cases were waterproof. They still had a cardboard overshot wad on the front of the case. Getting this wad to remain waterproof was also very problematic. Still a moisture entry spot, granted not as serious a spot as the old paper shells posed. Just things to remember when you deploy in a less that dry environment and need a weapon that you can depend on when the going gets rough.  |
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Post by lt13demi on Aug 14, 2009 9:29:13 GMT -5
Additional quotes from the Viet Officer,,,
"b.) were used by local forces in ferreting out VM south of Hanoi near Haiphong in operations exclusive in the Delta and (c.) maybe by recce platoons of larger forces in Delta operations. Shotguns are an excellent close-in weapon in the jungle."
Excellent answers,,,,,,,, Other food for thought I'll throw out.
Shotgun shells are heavy and very bulky. USGI full length brass shess of the 12 gauge variety came in a box of only 10 shells. It is difficult to pack enough ammo for you shotgun on an extended patrol in the bush. Not impossible, but it will place a burden on you when you can pack anywhere from three to five times as much of the other small arms ammo (9mm., .30 Carbine, even 7.5 x 54 MAS) to feed your other weapon. We are all aware of the problems the French occassionaly experienced with supply. Not to mention you would be packing other items for your section as well. Spare mortar rounds. extra loaded 24/29 mags, etc..... Try putting on just 50 rounds of 12 gauge, 00 buck, full brass shells where you can easily access them, and the rest of your gear!
Hence for the type of operations mentioned above by the officer the shotgun's use would be more practical from a tactical standpoint. Chances are you would have been on a very short "clearing" operation. Police type actions! Not far from a re-supply area. And there exists the possibility you would have been in a more urbanized environment (on SE Asia standards). Perfect situations for your shotgun if you can get the ammo....
On another note, I had a good friend who was a Captain in the Quartermaster Corps 101 AB in Viet Nam. We would talk for hours. He stated that when they cleaned out VC weapons caches they found 100's of cheap single shot shotguns along with all the usual complement of French rifles, SMGs, M-1 Garands with 2" of the butt-srock cut off, etc.......
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Post by grog on Aug 14, 2009 17:40:13 GMT -5
Something I read once that supports this was in the book "American Guerrilla in the Philippines". At one point in the book an American officer and some of his Filipino officers were on board a US sub putting together a shopping list for the subs next visit.
The Filipinos, when asked what kind of weapons they wanted replied "Shotguns and shotgun shells. It's the best thing for blowing the Japs out of the brush". The sub skipper replied that they were limited on space and that they could bring two carbines and 1500 rounds of ammo in place of every shotgun and 100 rounds of ammo. The Filipinos decided they would rather have the carbines.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 15, 2009 9:49:59 GMT -5
At our next Vietnam Veterans Plannning Committee Meeting in September I will be speaking with several former ARVN officers who served under French command, and ask them in detail if they have any information on this. My last question was to a former BG, but it was during dinner; I'll see what comes up after the meeting when we sit down for coffee.
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Post by niv on Aug 16, 2009 17:45:30 GMT -5
Thanks Mimosa. I'll remember that. 
You guys are just plain missing the point: I want to carry a trenchgun. Period! I want to because. . . well. . . because I want to, so there!
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 17, 2009 17:58:13 GMT -5
Niv, I am going to a planning meeting tonight at the VFW Post in Cypress. I should see COL Lieu there and I will ask him for more specifics on the trenchgun and usage, units, etc. I'll email you offpost (for some reason my emails from yahoo were kicked back saying "no such address" ---- ok now, are you in the reenactor relocation program? )  Mick
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Post by oggy on Sept 3, 2009 20:12:19 GMT -5
Thanks Mimosa. I'll remember that.
You guys are just plain missing the point: I want to carry a trenchgun. Period! I want to because. . . well. . . because I want to, so there! and the point is... Niv, if you are willing to do the research, and adapt your impression to your findings, all well and good, but to carry a weapon on a whim - well that's a bit FARBY... Look at it this way: If you are carrying a weapon that the ammo is unreliable, all you have is a club when you need a Shotgun most. |
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Post by lew on Oct 2, 2013 7:53:03 GMT -5
I know from reading about the Algerian war that Shotgus, of various types, were used by both the FLA/ALN and the French forces. They were certainly used by irregulars and rear echelon French forces. I have not read anywhere about them being used in Indochina and I've not seen any photos. However, I would say that it was highly likely that they were employed by uch units as Partisans, GCMA's, Commandoes and other such rear echelon forces. A war spanning a decade and fought in jungles would have seen some for sure. Fun fact: About 50% of French casualties caused by small arms in Algeria were from shotguns- double and single barrel sporting arms, no pumps or semis. |
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