Le fusil de 7.5 mm modèle MAS 36-51

[cookie]

I've put this thread here to share information I've managed to find on this particular variant of the MAS rifle. Feel free to add any photos or words. If anyone has any corrections let me know via private message and I'll edit it.

Manufacture d'armes de Saint-Étienne fusil modèle 1936 de lance grenades 1951.





In 1949 France introduced the "LG48" grenade launching MAS36 rifle. After a short time in service, mostly in Indochina, it was decided that although the weapon performed well and the design was robust, improvements needed to be made.
The only complaint to come from the soldiers in the field was that the grenade sighting and rangefinding device was not very accurate and that aiming the grenade tended to be very much a guessing game.
The other main issue was that with the onset of the Cold War with Russia, various efforts were being made to standardise NATO forces ammunition and ordinance across Europe. France went some way to implementing this with the new rifle by designing the launcher to fire NATO standard 22mm grenades. These came in various forms, such as anti-personnel and anti-tank. (NB- the rifle remained bored to the French 7.5mm cartridge and not the NATO 7.62mm)
The side mounted sighting arm was increased in size and sofistication and now featured a more elaborate sighting arrangement, reminiscent of the flip-up 'ladder' sight on a WWII German "Panzerfaust" rocket launcher.
The barrell of the '51 rifle was also lengthened so that a ridged jacket could be fitted over the end of the barrell. This formed the basis of the launcher.
The grenades were now hollow charged and could be fired further with more destructive capablities. They were also a lot more effective than the older 48mm grenades which were heavy and bulbous.
The MAS36/51 was manufactured between 1951 and 1955 and saw service in the later stages of the Indochina war on into the Algerian war. It was largely replaced by the MAS49 and 49/56 semi automatic rifle series, which also featured integral launchers, however it was retained as a substitute standard weapon in the French armed forces until 1966. The French CRS riot police were still using the MAS36/51 into the 1990's to launch tear gas at demonstrators.


This picture appears to be of a French soldier in Indochina armed with a MAS36/51. From his clothing it would appear to be from late 1953 to 1954 and could possibly from one of the forays from Dien Bien Phu by the airborne 'GAP2' battlegroup???

[lt13demi]

Hope this image comes thru.

If not look here;

www.sturmgewehr.com/bhinton/French_MAS/MAS_36.51A.jpg

Renault

[cookie]

I would quite like to get my hands on one of those TAP rifle grenade pouches featured in your photo there. Apparently they are quite rare.

[lt13demi]

We had never seen an example of one here in the states, either. Then, we received three in a shipment from a dealer France last week!!!!!! I was lucky enough to grab one before they disappeared! I'll try to post a pic later! It was unissued!

Renault

[cookie]

Merde!

[lt13demi]

i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/lt13demi/100_1274.jpg

i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/lt13demi/100_1275.jpg

i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/lt13demi/100_1276.jpg

I know the ammo is from a bit later, but i thought they'd add a nice touch to the photo. The one I picked up still had the top of the shoulder strap in it's spot under the flap. Apparently it hadn't ever been put together.

It looks to me that if you wanted you could snap the two clips of the shoulder strap to to the two attaching buckles on your TAP 50 suspenders and carry the pouch to your front chest like it was a respirator bag.

I remember seeing pics of soldats in Indochine wearing their 3-pocket grenade pouch almost to their extreme front on their belt... I don't really know why other than maybe thet's the only place they had to put it. Just speculation on my part.

Renault

[lt13demi]

Now that I look at the pouch it appears to me that this mine may be for the older M48 grenades. What do you think?? The pouch with the 36/51 only has one set of snaps. And looks a bit longer. But the straps are the same.

Renault

[cookie]

I would think it was intended for the LG48 as the dividers are quite wide. The ones on the 36/51 are a lot narrower as the grenades are generally thinner.

That bag is mint, a very good find.

[lt13demi]

Merci, Cookie,,,,, And merci beaucoup for scoring the Pic of the 36/51 in Indochine!!!!!! Magnifique!

Renault

[Turner]

As far as I know there were three different types of TAP 50 pouches. One for MAT49 mags, one for grenades (I think the one with the two snap rows) and one for Chattellerault M24/29 mags, which seems to be the one on the pic.

It looks to me that if you wanted you could snap the two clips of the shoulder strap to to the two attaching buckles on your TAP 50 suspenders and carry the pouch to your front chest like it was a respirator bag.

There's a pic of Fusiliers-marins commandos in Armes Militaria Magazine No.256 in an article on the Suez expedition in 1956. At least one of the two pictured soldiers carries the pouch, like you said, on the chest.

Btw. today arrived my life firing MAS 36. Now I've got a life firing one and a blank firing one. Unfortunately both are of 50s manufacturing dates. Not the best for my growing 1940 impression, but it will have to suffice for the moment.

Nice pics of fine rifles!!

Regards, Turner

[niv]

Take a look at EBay Item 290298036557, listed as an ammo carrier. Is this, indeed, an ammo carrier or a grenade pouch?

[lt13demi]

Niv,

I would say it was a M24/29 Magazine pouch....

Renault

[lt13demi]

OPERATION "SPEAR CHUCKER"

is under way!!!!!!!!

I have assembled some material to begin work on the faux rifle grenades for the MAS 36/51. I have decided to try a mock up of the Type LG 48 Grenade first. Albeit not really the correct grenade for the 36/51, it is certainly the most recognizable as a rifle grenade.

From a safety standpoint, I feel this type will also deploy easier, be safer to launch, and a safer object to shoot downrange in the event it struck a fellow reenactor. Although the 36/51 would take a standard post 1950 NATO grenade, I feel these were probably nonexistant in the Indochina theatre of operations. The standard 36/51 grenade looking more like a slim rocket than an actual bulbous grenade. ( And they will fit my new grenade pouch a lot easier!)

I will update with weekly test results as they become available, granted I do not loose an eye, finger, or worse.

Renault

[lonestarcharlie]

So... we don't get to hear the results if you lose a body part? Dissapointing!

And what's this about rifle grenades?! Isn't it enough that you frenchies have all the machine guns, sub guns, vehicles, and numbers, you gotta have rifle grenades too? CRAP! All I've got are these "reenactor-safe" punji sticks....

[lt13demi]

First results of "Operation Spear-Chucker" are in!

GREAT SUCCESS!!!!!

I'm currently downloading pics to Photobucket for posting. This will take a while. The overall appearance of my prototype doesn't look too close to a LG 48, but it actually looks closer to several other of the HE grenades.

I assure you when you see the photos, you will be assured that only the strictest of safety procedures were followed!!!!

More to come.

David what are you griping about?? You Viets are getting all the Fresh US stuff from Korea! ;D ;D ;D

Renault

[lt13demi]

Here's the prototype. It's not pretty. no paint or tailfins as of yet. I've figured out how to attach tailfins. More on that later. Working out bugs! I wanted to see if it would "fly" before I continued. So far , so good!

Material used is;

3/4" 200 PSI PVC pipe (very thin walled)
3/4" end cap with 1/2" pressure release hole drilled in the end
Foam pipe insulation for "Grenade Body"

i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/lt13demi/100_1279.jpg

So I tie it into the netwire fence around the yard (garden if you prefer)!

i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/lt13demi/100_1280.jpg

ONLY the SAFEST of procedures are used! ;D I tie a string onto the trigger, and,,,,,,,

i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/lt13demi/100_1281.jpg

I take safe refuge behind a Chinese Tallow tree! "Honey, hold my beer & watch this!!!!"

i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/lt13demi/100_1283.jpg

And here's the result. The pipe and endcap are unfazed! The insulation blew off, but I have found better glue for it and have trimmed the edges to give it a more streamlined appearance.... I used the HOT Swanson blanks as a proof load. The other guy's not so hot blanks should work better!!!!!

i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/lt13demi/100_1284.jpg

More to come

Renault

[Turner]

That's an interesting research!
Please keep us informed about your improvements.
How about your tests with the tailfins? Do they improve the
accuracy?
That's my favourite picture!
i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/lt13demi/100_1283.jpg
Regards, Turner

[grog]

Mar 10, 2009 17:14:47 GMT -5 Turner said:

That's an interesting research!
Please keep us informed about your improvements.
How about your tests with the tailfins? Do they improve the
accuracy?
That's my favourite picture!
i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/lt13demi/100_1283.jpg
Regards, Turner

You'll notice of course that all his fingers are blown off at the knuckle.

[lt13demi]

Update on Operation "Spear-Chucker"

Okay, Haven't been able to devote much time in the past several days to research and development. But I do have two new things to add.

A. I believe I've located a adequate tailfin material in foamboard. Fins will be incorporated in a larger piece of PVC that will act as a collet and slip over the grenade shaft and fit tightly. I will update the tests as they become available.

B. I've assembled a prototype 60mm mortar round that can also be deployed from the 36/51. it looks like an M48 rifle grenade on steriods! But not too many steriods! Actually it looks more like the M48 than my original rounds. It's just a wee bit larger than the M48. Actually more like the mortar round! More info as research continues!

Renault

[craigtx]

I'm very proud of my new (to me) MAS 36-51

[lew]

Nice. Have any larger pictures? What year is yours?

I have a 1957, and I'm debating whether or not I should grab a mint one that's for sale.

Service of Supply has rubber US dummy grenades for sale, if you are interested. ~$20 each. I got five of them, so now I need to load up some blanks.

[craigtx]

Nope, that's the only pic so far. I can take some more. I'm not sure about the year. Where would I find the s/n (or year mfg) on this beastie?

[lew]

If the buttstock is original, there will be a circular acceptance stamp on the side with the year smack in the middle. There is also a tacked thread on Surplus Rifle Forum under the French Rifles/MAS-36 subforum with serial number ranges and dates. I have it saved, too, if you want to tell me all but the last two digits of the number.

[craigtx]

Here's the larger picture.

[lew]

Looks good. The circular stamp does not look to be present, and the wood looks like it has been replaced when the rifle was refurbished. Normally, the stamp would be directly opposite the sling bracket. It's about an inch in diameter, so you wouldn't miss it.

It looks like the sling is the right color (i.e. not yellow), so that's a plus.

[craigtx]

Nope no cartouche that I could see. There is an F and number. But from what little I've dug up the serial numbers began with a script letter then number. The F is a block letter.

[lew]

F-prefixed number puts it anywhere from 1953-56. Share the first three digits and we can narrow that down to a year.

[craigtx]

Sure Lew, they're 514.

[lew]

F 514xx puts it at about mid-1954. The closest known example listed is January, 1954 with F 22705 and F 600xx in October of that year.

If you were to remove the handguards, the barrel date will be near the chamber. It may or many not be original to the rifle, considering that the wood looks like a replacement set.

[craigtx]

I'll have to check it once I figure out how everything works... :-)

Thanks for the information! I appreciate you goin' though the trouble.