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Post by lt13demi on Dec 28, 2008 12:41:57 GMT -5
An open question for the forum From the way I see things, it appears that the majority of French "Leg" units were shy on camo uniforms. And that the vast majority of camo was being reserved and utilized by the assorted Union, Legion, and Colonial Para regiments. I've seen pics of II/ 2e REI during "Condor" wearing Brit sausage skin smocks. But in the majority of photos of std. Infantry types, I see M47's, M48 khaki shirts & shorts, USGI OD HBT's, everything else except an abundance of camo...... With this in mind, it appears the correct impression for the average infantry units would be something other than a camo kit. Or perhaps the occasional camo smock or jacket. Comments?  Renault |
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Post by grog on Dec 28, 2008 15:15:44 GMT -5
That's been my impression as well.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Dec 28, 2008 15:38:43 GMT -5
mon lieutenant:
your correct.
the main legion etrangere / coloniale infantry impression should be green: USGI HBT's and/or M47 or a mix of the two. this was the standard uniform for just about the entire war based upon the photographs from ECPAD.FR, the Osprey books and other color plate published photos.
i would like to make mention as well, that an infantry impression is the least "sexy" in terms of the use of camouflage from a reenacting perspective. sometimes we bit off more than we can comfortably chew in terms of submerging ourselves into something elite. i find nothing wrong with camou uniforms, but i beleive it should be left (almost exclusively) to those who choose a para impression. like wwii, the denison smock should be left for those representing airborne or glider infantry, not "late war british infantry."
gentlemen, this is my opinion ... and i am sticking to it!
;D
/martini/
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fmf
Entraînement
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Post by fmf on Dec 28, 2008 15:45:43 GMT -5
as much as I like My Marine camo , I bought Green HBTs to replace them after I heard that only Paras wore the camo , and the tops at least were priced right from Sportsmans Guide , I bought 4 and sold 2 to other members of the unit , the trousers I bought from at the front
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Post by oggy on Dec 28, 2008 17:05:58 GMT -5
I'm just about to throw a spanner in the works - The Tenue Extreme Orient (first Para uniform) - OG
Tenue de Saut mle 1947 - OG - Bigeard wore this on a couple of Parades.
When Funds allow, I intend to get some HBTs, to wear with my M47 Jacket, to cover all aspects of this conflict.....
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Post by lt13demi on Dec 28, 2008 20:05:28 GMT -5
Yes oggy, I have an original set of the "Tenue de Saut, khaki Fonce M47" in my collection! I believe that uniform was theatre made as well, weren't they? I'll stick with my M47's for sure!!!!!!  Renault |
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Post by oggy on Dec 30, 2008 8:39:52 GMT -5
I believe so - Ausdig has more info, since his reference library is mahoosive!......
Just goes to show that there is nothing straightforward in this period
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Post by sgtjeanvaljean on Dec 30, 2008 18:05:47 GMT -5
If you are wearing cammo without wings you must have used system "D" and someone is looking for you.
Sgt. Valjean
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Post by cookie on Jan 5, 2009 11:40:07 GMT -5
Here is an extract from and article by Martin Windrow, using research by Denis Lassus:
Concerning the Tenue de saut modele 1947:
"This was produced in 'dark khaki' (a variable shade of drab, sometimes tending to grey-green, sometimes to a yellower shade) under Notices Technique 31-10 and 31-20 of March 1949. First issued to units based in France and French North Africa, it reached Indochina at the end of 1950. It was first issued at the Base Aerportee Sud (airborne base South - Saigon), and later spread gradually among the paratroop units. It was made of a material termed croise coton 320; since units in the field were generally equipped by this time with lighter-weight uniforms, many of them camouflage patterns, it was common for the Mle 1947 uniform to be kept for barracks and walking out."
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Post by Turner on Feb 5, 2009 1:24:43 GMT -5
...since units in the field were generally equipped by this time with lighter-weight uniforms, many of them camouflage patterns, it was common for the Mle 1947 uniform to be kept for barracks and walking out. I read that that was also done with the US M-1943 jackets. They had a very good shape but they were too warm, due to the lining. So they were kept for parade duty. Regards, Turner |
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Post by lt13demi on Feb 5, 2009 7:46:02 GMT -5
The set of Khaki Tenue de saut mle 47 I have are a lighter weight cotton fabric. As lightweight (if not possible lighter) as any of the original 47/51's and 47/52's I've seen. Basically it's nothing but a green version of the future 47/51 lizard camo. I'm not convinced that these might be a later South Vietnamese copy of the French uniform for ARVN paras. But they are the mirror image of the French uniform. (Sgt. Valjean has attempted to make off with them several times! One must keep an eye on the good sergent! ;D) They are unmarked which leads me to believe they are theatre made. And they look just like the drawings and diagrams in the Osprey MAA series on the French Indochina War. This publication does allude to theatre manufacture. I will attempt to post pics later if this uniform.... Now I do have an original Mle 47 jacket dated April '52 (internal pockets, by the way!), that is manufactured from some very heavy fabric! I wear it on cooler mornings here as it's very comfortable. I fear that if one was to wear this jacket in Indochina, summers would definitely have been murder!!!!!  Glad we could get a thread started again. Things have been dead lately!!!!! Renault |
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fmf
Entraînement
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Post by fmf on Feb 5, 2009 18:49:46 GMT -5
The Temp does Drop in Viet Nam, I wore My Field Jacket often in the Morning and at Night in the Highlands and along the Coast , also at sea up along North Vietnam's coast in the winter
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Post by lt13demi on Feb 5, 2009 20:20:17 GMT -5
Oui! Several personal conversations I've had with close vet friend have talked of the cooler temps in places just as you've mentioned. It is reported that in the Tonkin highlands evening and early morning winter temps in the upper 30's (F) are not uncommon! Perhaps Sgt. Valjean might like to elaborate! Renault |
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Post by sgtjeanvaljean on Feb 6, 2009 14:02:11 GMT -5
Bon!!
Lt., yes it gets cold in the northern highlands also in northern Laos. Frost has been seen in the high elevation areas around DBF in 1960 by my own eyes. Of course I haven't been farther east but see no reason that the weather should be that different there. Used M-47s and many other layers will keep you warm though.
Sgt.Valjean
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Post by soldatsoucy1 on Feb 6, 2009 18:50:05 GMT -5
Since I am new and at the risk of drawing salvos for untying a tied up and put away topic.........here goes.
In terms of early uniform components, as I understand it, the French military in Indochine used a mix of US, British and other uniforms. Has anyone seen photographs or citation of the use of WWII US M42 airborne uniforms or portions thereof? Looking forward to responses.
Soldat Soucy
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Post by indochina on Feb 9, 2009 21:58:40 GMT -5
I have seen a picture of Lt-Col Sauvagnac riding a pony wearing teh american M42 para jacket in the french militaria magazine, #245
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Feb 10, 2009 14:24:57 GMT -5
indochina:
a lot of different types of uniforms were worn during the french indochina war, U.S., British, French, German, etc. it was usually the exception and never the rule. as different as the french were in the use of different caliber weapons, you would usually see some type of standard among frontline units.
/martini/
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Post by indochina on Feb 10, 2009 20:11:41 GMT -5
Just in response to the earlier post
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Post by lt13demi on Feb 10, 2009 21:18:29 GMT -5
Often wondered the same thing about USGI jump suits & such. Appears that they opted for the camo stuff before the other USGI jump suits. And it wasn't long before they had their own stuff to choose from. Certainly makes more sense and then we get into what was cooler thing too! If I had my choice between USGI M42's Jumps and USMC HBT frogskins, I'd sure go with the USMC stuff. It's lighter and cooler to me. And yes it looks cooler too! Just my rambling! Renault |
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Post by oggy on Feb 14, 2009 5:58:53 GMT -5
I suppose if I were a Lt Col, I'd wear pretty much the 'Gucci' option for kit!
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Post by niv on Feb 14, 2009 9:49:15 GMT -5
Hey – it worked for Saddam Hussein.
“Of course, to the masses they looked like standard-issue Iraqi-army fatigues. But read the label. Those were Gucci, baby.”
Excerpt from What I've Learned: Saddam Hussein
Tyrant (Deceased) 67
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Post by cookie on Feb 14, 2009 10:31:40 GMT -5
If I was an officer in Indochina I'd wear exactly the same as everyone else and wouldn't wear any insignia either...
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Post by indochina on Feb 14, 2009 16:56:06 GMT -5
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Post by lt13demi on Feb 15, 2009 10:07:14 GMT -5
I'm sorry! I gotta agree with Cookie on this one! Sure don't wanna stand out like a target rich environment! I really wasn't trying to start a thread on officers kit!  I think the camo USGI and USMC uniforms were just the thing at the time for the French paras. Until their own stuff started rolling in. The US was not using it and they were cheap. The French didn't really have to pay for them. They were the perfect answer for the French. Gave the paras a different uniform so they would stand out as a seperate unit. It's that esprit d'corps thing! Again just my ramblings! Renault |
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Post by oggy on Feb 15, 2009 13:40:26 GMT -5
Aye, check out the line drawings on the different TAP uniforms - it helps a lot in identifying them. |
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Post by oggy on Feb 15, 2009 13:43:01 GMT -5
I'm sorry! I gotta agree with Cookie on this one! Sure don't wanna stand out like a target rich environment! I really wasn't trying to start a thread on officers kit! I think the camo USGI and USMC uniforms were just the thing at the time for the French paras. Until their own stuff started rolling in. The US was not using it and they were cheap. The French didn't really have to pay for them. They were the perfect answer for the French. Gave the paras a different uniform so they would stand out as a seperate unit. It's that esprit d'corps thing! Again just my ramblings! Renault Which backfired in Algeria - the Fell avoided the well trained Paras in their distinctive Tenue Leopard, and hit the conscripts in OG instead  |
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Post by lt13demi on Feb 15, 2009 21:56:39 GMT -5
Maybe the paras were just so well camo'ed...... Never mind! ;D ;D
Ahhh! The beauties of insurgent warfare! Makes darn good sense to me too, oggy! Hit the conscripts!
Renault
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Post by Turner on Feb 16, 2009 8:51:38 GMT -5
I have seen a picture of Lt-Col Sauvagnac riding a pony wearing teh american M42 para jacket in the french militaria magazine, #245 I do also remember a pic of a higher officer with a 1942 jump suit jacket. I agree that troop officers preferred to wear the same uniforms as normal soldiers. But I think from LtCol. upwards they were able to wear what they liked, when they haven't been in the field. Have you seen pics of USMC Paramarine jump jackets being used in Indochina? In "Les troupes aeroportee en Indochine 1945/1956" it is said that they were used partly by 2eme BEP. They don't show a pic of it being worn, but maybe some of yours did better research? Otherwise its a nice magazine:  Regards, Turner |
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Post by cookie on Feb 16, 2009 10:44:06 GMT -5
According to Denis Lassus in his excellent series of articles featured in 'Militaria Magazine' both the USMC 'Raider' & 'Third pattern paratrooper jump smocks' were used, to greater or lesser degrees, by the seven paratroop battalions that participated in the battle of Dien Bien Phu.
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Post by oggy on Feb 17, 2009 6:01:08 GMT -5
Maybe the paras were just so well camo'ed...... Never mind! ;D ;D Ahhh! The beauties of insurgent warfare! Makes darn good sense to me too, oggy! Hit the conscripts! Renault It worked well, until the Paras started wearing Greens ;D |
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