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Post by Legion Etrangere on Jul 27, 2009 9:45:56 GMT -5
Cookie, question: One of the mag's you sent showed the U.S. WWII M41 airborne trousers being worn. I've now seen this in several photographs in my research ... and finally viewed a blow up of 5e BPVN's famous ECPAD photo of Bảo Ðại reviewing the unit. Sure enough, all the officers and NCOs are wearing the U.S. WWII trousers or what looks to be the M41's. I assume this was brought to Indochina from the DBSAS and RCP's and not the Coloniaux airborne units. This has perplexed me ever since I saw the reconstruction in the militaria magazine. One of the explanations in French made mention that it was indeed the US airborne trousers...
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Post by soldatsoucy1 on Jul 27, 2009 13:13:48 GMT -5
Martini and Cookie:
I remember Martini showed me the image in question with the US airborne trousers. But Im wondering if we are talking about the M42 airborne trousers or M43s........I just cant find an image of M41s....
Doc
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Post by lt13demi on Jul 27, 2009 17:12:55 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree with you Doc..... I'm not familiar with M41 Airborne trousers. It's sometimes pretty easy to get numbers all mixed up in this hobby with the immense variety of military nomenclatures!!!! Sheesh! I'm doing well to remember my cell number!
Renault
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Jul 27, 2009 17:31:35 GMT -5
CORRECTION: M1942 Paratrooper trousers. The US nomenclature is confusing at times ...
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Post by lonestarcharlie on Jul 27, 2009 22:14:52 GMT -5
Interestingly enough, there WAS a M41 US Airborne uniform... At The Front used to reproduce it, but I guess they don't anymore. I can't find any images of pants, but here is a page with several images of the jacket. You have to scroll a bit. www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=40150Anyways, I'm sure Mick was talking about the M42, but just for the record, there was an M41! I think it was only used in training though, by the time the Italy jumps came, they were using the M42 (not the rigger reinforced kind that was used on D-Day, but the unmodified version)
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Jul 28, 2009 9:38:14 GMT -5
Anyways, I'm sure Mick was talking about the M42, but just for the record, there was an M41! I think it was only used in training though, by the time the Italy jumps came, they were using the M42 (not the rigger reinforced kind that was used on D-Day, but the unmodified version)
LoneStarCharlie,
Thanks for the info.
I did not know there was an M41, but sure enough, if you do scroll down long enough you will find pics of the M41 ... and ATF did make them at one time. That seems like eons ago now, since they have discontinued their airborne uniforms.
BTW, Fedora Lounge is an excellent resource for WWII uniforms. I am a member of that group. Its mainly 1920's - 50's enthusiasts but you can find some WWII posts on their that cover the gamut of WWII uniforms, weapons and equipment.
LSC, thanks for the update...
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Post by oggy on Jul 28, 2009 12:41:44 GMT -5
And some 60's Brit kit too, according to LSC's link
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Post by cookie on Aug 1, 2009 8:37:44 GMT -5
They're unreinforced M42 paratrooper trousers. Surplus stocks from when the US started issuing its airborne with the standard M43 uniform in 1944. The leg ties would seem to be added in by French riggers after receipt of the gear, as these were generally added by airborne riggers in theatre during WWII. There is also the possiblity that they may have been M41 para uniforms, as they certainly existed. Who knows, maybe the US cleaned out all its surplus stocks of unforms they weren't using anymore. They did this with the infantry M41 jackets during the Korean war, and issued them to the ROK troops.
Again though, very early Indochina, up to around 1948-49, the SAS units wore these items. Some would have filtered through into other units when they were redesignated later on.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 1, 2009 10:17:43 GMT -5
They're unreinforced M42 paratrooper trousers. Surplus stocks from when the US started issuing its airborne with the standard M43 uniform in 1944. The leg ties would seem to be added in by French riggers after receipt of the gear, as these were generally added by airborne riggers in theatre during WWII. There is also the possiblity that they may have been M41 para uniforms, as they certainly existed. Who knows, maybe the US cleaned out all its surplus stocks of unforms they weren't using anymore. They did this with the infantry M41 jackets during the Korean war, and issued them to the ROK troops. Again though, very early Indochina, up to around 1948-49, the SAS units wore these items. Some would have filtered through into other units when they were redesignated later on.
Cookie,
Interesting, in that several of the BPVN photos, the airborne trousers would seem to be the early, unmodified version with the added rigger ties. The specific photo of Bao Dai inspecting 1e BPVN is particularly interesting. I blew it up and from all accounts, it certainly looks as though that is what they are wearing.
My 3e BCCP book has not arrived yet but I bet the early war uniforms will be a close approximation of the uniforms from the DBSAS troops, issued US gear and what the French had in stocks. And its possible the first run M41's made it to Indochina [ ? ] Thanks for the help mes ami.
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Post by cookie on Aug 1, 2009 11:43:27 GMT -5
Don't foget they made all sorts of items in theatre. It is entirely possible that small consignments of M42 or M41 para trousers made it to Indochina and were copied locally. As can be seen in many early photos paras had M42 style jump jackets made which had leather shoulder reinforcements and other theatre specific features. They also made local copies of the M47 'tenue de saut' when it was introduced.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 1, 2009 11:48:12 GMT -5
I saw those in the photos of 1e BCP, a company of DBSAS and 5e BCCP in Dakar. Reinforced shoulders with a chamois-style leather [ ? ] We have spotted a few pics of combinations of the US Army M43 camou jacket and trousers...
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Post by oggy on Aug 2, 2009 5:35:12 GMT -5
Could these be the Tenue Extreme Orient?
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Post by cookie on Aug 2, 2009 7:17:35 GMT -5
Yes, or local knock-offs. The possibilities are endless.
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Post by oggy on Aug 3, 2009 2:35:52 GMT -5
Yes, or local knock-offs. The possibilities are endless. You've gotta love this period - the more research you do, the more questions it throws up!
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Post by soldatsoucy1 on Aug 3, 2009 7:03:08 GMT -5
Indeed this period is an excellent study in variability. Although one can isolate the "average" uniform composition for just about any group, just about any combination you can think up....you can see it at least one photograph of the period. Its amazing.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 3, 2009 9:36:32 GMT -5
Oggy / Doc,
Your right.
As Cookie stated, " ...the possibilities are endless." The French militaria mags sent me are incredible. I never imagined U.S. WWII Army airborne uniforms worn in such variations - variations on variations - different themes of uniforms worn with other odds and sods. LOL. The French took what little they had and developed some very interesting combat uniform combinations - based upon what stocks were available and what worked in combat. For a nation that was literally destroyed [ for all intents and purposes ] and in the throes of rebuilding, this is a testament to their will to "make due." I am still amazed at how the French held out with less, for so long...
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Post by cookie on Aug 3, 2009 11:54:36 GMT -5
All the more so when you consider the 'limitless' US budget of the later war in that country.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 3, 2009 14:37:00 GMT -5
Cookie, how true.
The majority of the U.S. Defense Budge for the Vietnam War was spent on the REMF's in the rear at Long Binh, Bien Hoa and other places instead of to the frontline infantry fighting the war. Col Hackworth made a great statement about this in his canon ABOUT FACE. Combat pay would be given to REMF's who were in the rear-with-the-gear [ theatres, showers, mail call, airconditioned bunkers, etc. ] while 18-year old Marines and Army privates were fighting off VC ambushes and stepping on tripwires.
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Post by cookie on Aug 3, 2009 14:48:26 GMT -5
Some things will never change. It was the same in Iraq and it is the same now in Afghanistan. This is the way wars are fought. I remember reading about thew ComZ supply chain during WWII. They moved in to Paris and had a great time, whilst the dog faces fought and died in the Huertgen and Ardennes. I'm sure it was the same when the Greeks went to war many centuries ago...
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Post by lt13demi on Aug 3, 2009 21:56:28 GMT -5
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Post by oggy on Aug 4, 2009 3:07:36 GMT -5
Wait until you see some of the locally made kit in WSS and Wehrmacht cams...
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Post by cookie on Aug 4, 2009 5:23:50 GMT -5
I'd rather not actually.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Aug 4, 2009 9:19:21 GMT -5
LOL------------------
I've seen the one photo of a French soldier in SS camou. The problem of course, as everyone knows, the "re-IN-AK-ter" will see that and want to duplicate it. It mirrors the "I saw a picture of a Brit Para with an M-1 carbine" ergo - I can carry an M-1 carbine.
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Post by cookie on Aug 4, 2009 9:37:10 GMT -5
Yes, its that unqualified search by reenactors for that special item that was so out-of-the-ordinary, but photographed on one occassion, that they have to have it - just to be a little bit different from everone else who does 506 PIR!
I call it 'reenactorism'.
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Post by oggy on Aug 5, 2009 7:31:49 GMT -5
The kit was that out of the ordinary, it was featured in Militaria Magazine...Don't get me started on the Fusileers Marin Denison copy...
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Post by marsouin on Nov 21, 2009 14:03:47 GMT -5
The US ww2 airborne tenue was quite scarce and really seldom used in Operations (too fragile).Therefore the lucky owners of such a set kept it for walking out...
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Nov 21, 2009 19:19:02 GMT -5
Do you mean the M42jumpsuit (airborne tenue)?
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Post by marsouin on Nov 21, 2009 19:27:48 GMT -5
Yes...
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Post by soldatsoucy1 on Nov 21, 2009 19:44:15 GMT -5
I fear that we gents of the 3e BCCP here in the states may have to move to France....sigh....but I do like snails and red wine!
The beret question is beginning to vex me.
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Post by Legion Etrangere on Nov 23, 2009 18:15:56 GMT -5
Beret rouge!
The light colored photos confirm it (as marsouin mentioned).
Interestingly, there is a supplier here in Houston - called TOP BRASS that has that EXACT color if you can beleive that ... for $12! Now, our unit has ONE standard headgear which is great. And World Militaria has the Metro Para cap badges for $8!
And with the impression built around HBTs and M47s it will make the outfitting of this unit much easier as the HBTs are for sale at At the Front for about 50-60 USD.
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