VIET MINH vs. VIET CONG

[lonestarcharlie]

I'd like to start a discussion about the differences between a Viet Minh impression and a Viet Cong one. I am very proud of my current VC kit, but I'm in the process of converting it to be appropriate for the VM. I'm going to be using a variety of WWII Japanese, French, Soviet, and Chinese gear on top of the traditional "black pajamas" that a typical Vietnamese peasant would wear. I'm trying to get rid of Vietnam War only gear, like plastic canteens, pith helmets, ak-47, and chest bandoliers for the same.

As far as weaponry goes, I know its pretty wide open... any WWII weapon could be correct, considering the vietnamese were armed, either directly or indirectly (like Russians giving them captured German weapons and Chinese giving them captured Japanese) by basically every army in the world (even the U.S. when Uncle Ho was fighting Japan). That being said, are there any weapons OFF limits? I think reenactors should strive for the most commonly used weapons of the VM... like soviet M44 carbines, and U.S. M1 Carbines... soviet SMGs, etc. Any thoughts?

I think a lot of Nam reenactors are going to be like me, in possession of an appropriate Viet Cong kit, and needing to know the do's and don'ts of using that in a French Indochina context.

[grog]

Hopefully we'll get some more VM in here to keep you company. Feel free to post a link to this board in any VC, NVA, or other Yahoo groups you may be a member of.

And that's one scary picture!

[grog]

Forgot to add... From pics I've seen, the VM Regulars seemed to be armed mainly with either the K98 or Moison Nagant. The VM Irregulars are the "anything goes" crowd. That's not to say that the Regulars wouldn't have other weapons, just that the point you made of the ones from China and the USSR possibly being the main ones issued seems to be accurate.

[lt13demi]

Lots of PPsH 43's, K98's and Bunches of French weapons!!!!!!

With the occasional #4 Mk1 and #1 Mk III

Renault

[cookie]

Also in the earlier part of the war the VM had large stocks of Japanese Arisaka rifles and 'woodpecker' machine guns.

But generally the K98 would be a very good, and affordable, starting weapon.

[6ebcp]

Also would see the odd sprinkling of Sten Mk2's and Thompson M1A1's with the irregulars. With SKS's coming to the VM regulars when supplied from Russia being produced at the Tula Armory from 1949 until 1955 and the Izhevsk Armory in 1953 and 1954, also supplied from China but called the Type 56. North Korean SKS's and North Vietnamese SKS's are also known.

Danny

[lt13demi]

Hmmmmm,,, I've never run across any SKS use this early in the war. I did not think they showed up in SE Asia until the early 60's. After American intervention.

I have a 52 dated Tula SKS.

Renault

[lonestarcharlie]

In the opening scene for We Were Soldiers, it shows French forces being ambushed by Viet Minh regulars. Not that I'm basing a historical impression on a movie by ANY means, but I thought for such a small scene, they still put a lot of effort into getting appropriate gear... none of the VM had AKs, a few of them had SKS rifles, but most had 91/30s, PPSHs, and PPS43s. A cool little scene, even if the SKS factor was a little off

[6ebcp]

Ahh sorry my bad, from what I’ve read reference "Soviet" supplies coming via China I believed that SKS's may have been included. You do come across them rarely during the Korean War, as they were issued to the best and brightest North Korean units and also you do come across references to Korean War captured and surplus items being issued to the Viet Minh such as the 105mm Howitzers so I was thinking it may be another possible source.

But thinking in retrospect the Chinese only issued items to the Viet Minh which they couldn't use themselves i.e. the 105mm's, spares and ammunition were limited due to them being captured from US forces and the possibility of obtaining further parts and ammunition was very limited if not impossible. I believe now this would also factor on all items supplied to them.

In my collection I have a deactivated undated SKS of Russian manufacture with no markings other than its serial number.

Cheers
Danny

[lt13demi]

I had a dear friend in VN as a Lieutenant in the US Quartermaster Corps. Circa 1966-67. He was the OIC of the disposition of many weapons caches. The weapon that he stated to me that he remember seeing the most was, believe it or not, US M-1 Garands with about an inch of the buttstock cut off!!!!!

I had alwas been led to believe that the vast majority of SKS's did not begin to trickle into VN until about 64-66. With the AKs arriving in 68-69. Naturally their are exceptions to all the rules! So I've be very inclined to never say never....

Heck, I remember my old company gunny telling me that the first M-16 he ever saw "in country" they took off a 14 year old kid who was also packing about 250 rounds of ammo!


There was also NO Legion units in GM 100 in the Many Yang pass as potrayed in We Were Soldiers. Coree Regiment, and several colonial cavalry and I think an artillery unit. Like Moroccans, etc. It was strange that the Regiment Coree served with distinction in Korea on several occassions. But their performance on this occassion was suspect. It was probably due to the particular undefendable deployment situation they were placed in. Damn difficult task and they took mega casualties. It's also interesting that the Viet Minh did announce to the besieged in the Mang Yang that DBP had fallen over loud speakers!


Ya know the movie led you to believe that the entire force was "massacred!" But in actuality about a 1/4 of the force did make it back to Pleiku. I also doubt they you would have seen ALL the troops in the real deal wearing USMC frogskins as well.

Renault

[cookie]

I wouldn't base any assumptions or opinions on the film 'We Were Soldiers'.
It is highly unlikely that the SKS, such a modern weapon at that time, would have been issued to the VM. This is so out of character to the rest of what the VM were issued with. They were using Mosin Nagants, PPSh41's, PPs43's, K98's and DP1928's at Dien Bien Phu. And this was the focus of Giap's attention. His best Divisions were there and they certainly werent armed with SKS's.
Also, the photos of the VM occupation of Hanoi in 1945, a prestige stunt of grand proportions, shows VM regulars with K98's, Czech Bren guns etc. Not exactly modern Russian/Chinese weaponry.

[lt13demi]

D'accord, Cookie!!!!

Exceptional point!!!!!!

Renault

[woodard]

Having done a lot of research on the Chinese during the Korean war, I'll chime in on what they were carrying at the time, it may help as far as what they were sending to the VM after 1949. During the Civil War the K98 (and Chinese versions) was extremely common, having been adopted prior to WW2. US weapons were supplied to the Nationalists (M-1903's, M-1917's, Thompsons, and support weapons), and 90% of this material ended up in Mao's hands. Captured Japanese weapons were available in large numbers as well. The Mausers don't really show up in Korea, so they may have already been available for the VM. In late 51' Mao and Stalin struck a deal and the Chinese got Soviet stuff, at which point the US and Japanese equipment would in theory have been available for export as well.

[cookie]

The VM also bought huge stocks of K98's and Japanese surplus from the Nationalist Chinese warlords who occupied the top half of Vietnam in the years immediately after the end of WWII. It is well documented that when there (and when they left) the local commanders sold of huge amounts of gear to the VM, for personal gain.
The US gear was issued to the VM instead of the new Soviet/Chinese made weaponry as the Chinese had enough problems of their own just equipping the PLA properly (who were themselves equipped en masse with obsolete Mosin Nagant rifles and PPSh41's/PPS43's). It was also felt necessary as the VM were seen by the PLA, until the end of the Korean war, as very much a sideshow. This is again supported by the fact that the VM were not helped in any major way by the PLA until the war in Korea stablised along the 38th parallel. Once the PLA saw that the US were not going to escalate their involvement in the area (or use atomics) they opened massive training camps just within china, for the VM officers, engineers, artillery etc.
The most striking example of the fact that the VM were given obsolete, or non-Soviet gear is their artillery at Dien Bien Phu, which were US 105mm guns of WWII provenance. They even fired back at their french their own miss dropped supplies of shells. This could not have happened with Soviet gear.

[cookie]

Renault,

The Regiment Coree didn't perform well in Indochina because the climate, terrain and enemy tactics were all completely different from in Korea.
They wen't from a country were the fighting was static, trench assault warfare in a barren, hilly country were the weather went from freezing and snowing, to a country were the enemy hid in dense, hilly jungle with weather that was 100% humidity and 40 degrees celcius. The Chinese PLA were very much a different foe to the VM, who tended to hide up and ambush the columns then fade away. The PLA would attack in their thousands, with massive artillery barrages, screaming and blowing bugles!

I wouldn't say the regiment were bad at all, just unlucky to find the rug pulled out from under their feet.

[woodard]

Coree also didn't have anything like the logistical support they had in Korea. I think it's in "Street w/o Joy" that the first time they got into a fight they called for helicopters for the wounded, only to have everyone on the net laugh at them.

A lot of the earlier Korean war Chinese tactics were taught to the VM, the mobile warfare tactics that won them the Civil war and nearly wiped out the US on the Chongchon. There's a few articles online at:
members.lycos.co.uk/Indochine/vm/ctac1.html#top and members.lycos.co.uk/Indochine/vm/vtac1.html#top

[6ebcp]

Dec 2, 2008 10:43:28 GMT -5 cookie said:

They even fired back at their french their own miss dropped supplies of shells.

They also gained alot more from the miss drops quite especially on the new technology front for example with the time delay fuses for the 105mm shells which had only recently been supplied to the french from the US.

Danny

[lt13demi]

I wouldn't say the regiment were bad at all, just unlucky to find the rug pulled out from under their feet.

Encore d'accord!!!!!!

Excellent thread. Yep! I don't thing the regiment was bad either. As you said, put in a bad situation!!!! Geez they had all thet "GOOD" UN stuff back in Korea!

I had the honor to serve with 4 men in our Marine rifle company that were all Korean vets! The stories were hair-raising to say the least! We did have one MOH winner from our Hometown unit;

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitt_L._Moreland

All Marines in our reserve battalion were used as replacements in regular Marine units. Most of the men I served with ended up somewhere in the 5th Marines while in Korea. I remember our company sergeant major talking about Moreland "kickin' grenades like they were footballs and using his BAR as a club!" He saw it al.....

Our company 1st Sergeant nearly froze to death at Chosin had it not been for him wearing his Class A's under his utilities!!!!!! But that's another story! He was one salty bast**d!!!! ;D

But they all talk about the same thing. Bugles and mass attacks!!!!

Renault

[woodard]

Yea, the US Army on the other side of the peninsula had about the same thing happen to them as GM 100. The Chinese hit them just hard enough to convince them to get the heck out of there, then were waiting on both sides of the road for about 8 miles. Course the Marines were smart enough to not get all strung out going in...

Semper Fi, mac! USMCR 99-05

[fmf]

I met some interesting Marine Vets from Korea at a 1 st Div convention , they had some great stories , We had a Gunny with us that recived the Silver Star in Korea , We also had several WW 2 vets on active duty that were finishing out their 30 years all were great people to serve with , Semper Fi , USMC 68-72

[Legion Etrangere]

cookie,

great point.

thousands of tons (millions possibly) found its way from chinese inventory into the hands of the VM. this was a point well made by stillwell (and his staff) in the CBI: the nationalist chinese are stockpiling our lend-lease and not using it! several OSS reports from the war (declassified in the early 60's) stated that the late-war japanese offensive (i want to say the ha-go offensive, but dont hold me to it) uncovered warehouse upon warehouse of u.s. military uniforms, equipment, supplies, rations, etc. for sale to the highest bidder, later, a large portion ending up in the hands of the VM.

/martini/

[cookie]

Martini,

According to Bernard Fall in 'Hell In A Very Small Place' Heavy Division 351 was equipped with ex US 75mm pack-howitzers captured from the Nationalist Chinese by The PLA. Apparently they were equipped in this way when they cycled through Ching Hsi and Long Chow for training (whilst there handed over their antique Japanese mountain guns). These were later, by 1953, replaced with 48 US 105mm howitzers, mostly of Korean war origin.

Small arms, according to Martin Windrow, were, from 1944, of Japanese, Nationalist Chinese, and French origin. These were gradually replaced by Communist Bloc weapons by 1950, with the Regulars getting the most up-to-date kit. The older, Japanese and Nationalist Chinese weapons being passed to the Regionals, whilst plenty of French weapons were kept in the hands of the Regulars for obvious reasons.
The large amounts of US weapons and equipment, from both WWII Chinese Nationalist and later Korean sources, were distributed evenly amongst regular and regional forces.

The communist bloc weapons were: PPSh41's, PPS43's, Mosin Nagant rifles, DP1928's and Tokarev pistols. Small numbers of DSHk 12.7mm heavy machine guns were issued to Vietminh anti aircraft forces.
Of note, these 'soviet' weapons were those that equipped the huge Chinese PLA at the same time. So it is interesting to note exactly how many of these weapons made it to the Viets through Chinese sources.
Nationalist weapons seem to have been Mauser contract K98 rifles, 'Bolo' C96 pistols, and a very small number of MG34's.
US weapons seem to be, exclusively, Thompson SMG's, M1 carbines and 75mm recoiless rifles. The M1 'Garand' does not seem to have been used by the Vietminh. It is also conspicuous by its absence from French forces as well...
It was widely issued to the Korean ROK army, but not the French, who received large numbers of M1 and M1A1 carbines. Strange.
Also, the US equipped the ROK with 75mm recoiless guns, but the French got the older, less effective, 57mm ones...

[sgtjeanvaljean]

Great work all hands!!!.
During the period 58/64 the only people in SE Asia we ran across carrying the SKS were Lao, Cambodian, NVA in the north. Which was alright with us. While there may have been some in Vietminh hands I would belive they would have been Gaps regulars.

Sgt. Valjean

[lonestarcharlie]

Wow, I forgot about this thread and have only now come back to it! Thanks to everyone for chiming in... I read my original post and shivered at the inaccuracies... seems like I've learned so much since only a couple months ago... finding information about the Viet Minh is a lot harder than info on the Viet Cong! Thanks for all the input

[Legion Etrangere]

David,

We hope you will be present at the 2009 FICW National in Rusk. Your impression is superb and will help establish a future base for V/M reenactors within our gallant group.

The great thing about reenacting is learning what is, and is not, correct through investigation and research.

V/M and V/C are two impressions that are opaque within the reenacting community, which need and require a balanced hand in pursuing the proper accuracy for reenacting. They should be treated like any other nationality so that we get it right.

Your first set of pics however are excellent.

Hope to see you in Rusk.

/martini/

[Legion Etrangere]

According to Bernard Fall in 'Hell In A Very Small Place' Heavy Division 351 was equipped with ex US 75mm pack-howitzers captured from the Nationalist Chinese by The PLA.

Mark,

I remember reading that in Fall's book. That was exactly the point I was making. It's incredible that equipment we sent to the Nationalist Chinese ended up in the hands of the V/M in French Indochina five years later!

There is a French officer's report that stated several weapons captured from V/M guerilla's near That Khe, still had some type of cosmeline still in the crevices of the weapon, evidence of newly arrived supplies.

My summation here would be that reenactors portraying V/M should be allowed to carry a vast array of weapons since there is ample evidence backing this up.

/martini/

[lonestarcharlie]

Yep, I'll be at Rusk, and I'm bringing a friend too. I am going to make it my job that come Saturday morning, you french aggresors curse my name!

[lt13demi]

"I am going to make it my job that come Saturday morning, you french aggresors curse my name! "

Now THAT'S what we wanted to hear!!!!! Magnifique!

Renault

[niv]

Don’t worry David – we already do! ;D

[Legion Etrangere]

Now THAT is a battle cry!

See you there you communist bastard! ;D

/martini/