1er BEP "dress" uniform

[Legion Etrangere]

Cookie,

What would comprise a semi-walking out uniform for 1er BEP?

We are thinking:

-kepi blanc
-camou top camou bottom (starched)
-waist belt (US or British)
-jump boots (shined)

... or,

-kepi blanc
-khaki shirt with airborne wings
-belt
-trousers bloused
-jump boots (shined)

[cookie]

Early to mid war it would have been tan shirt and trousers, with shined shoes or jump boots, and a kepi blanc. With unit pocket badge, rank insignia, jump wings, medal ribbons and lanyards. Belt would have been a leather french one or a tan or OD green US WWII trouser belt, not a cartridge or pistol belt.

Later war, c.1953, for BEP's the 47/52 lizard suit became the standard semi dress uniform, worn with all rank and insignia, although the tan shirt and trousers would have been worn for going out at night usually. The green beret was not officially adopted until after the end of the Indo war.

[Legion Etrangere]

Cookie,

Merci.

We are putting together a walking out uniform for next year's event here in Houston, which will be the 3rd Annual Vietnam Veterans Reunion. Tan's, jump boots, kepi and a leather french belt will serve as our standard then. We want a cookie cutter impression for that uniform.

[cookie]

yeah, sounds good.

You can get cheap, and correct, 1950's issue french tan trousers and shirts from www.trancheemilitaire.com - 8 euros for a shirt!

I have yet to see god condition WWII/Indo era french medal ribbons though.

[Legion Etrangere]

hey, whats your (and others) opinion on the wearing of medals, combat and otherwise?

[cookie]

The wearing of a military uniform to start with puts you fully in the position of 'wearing something you didn't earn', so the addition of some correctly researched and properly placed ribbons/medals/lanyards does not cause any further issues to me.
I wear the uniform of various US WWII airborne units (and others), though I have never jumped out of a plane or been in combat. To me it is all the same. If you do something properly and in the right place, with the right amount of deference, dignity and respect for the people and places you're portraying then it cannot be a problem. In fact, to wear the uniform without the period correct 'unit awards' ect would make it inaccurate and wrong.

for instance; If you were to dress in a 1952 era French colonial paratroopers 'walking-out' uniform, say tan shirt with jumpwings, two lines of ribbons and a lanyard, and attended a Vietnamese veterans association open day, and were to stand around talking to people about what you're doing and what you're wearing (and how the old guys earned it all) would be right and proper. To wear the same and go for a beer with the boys down the local bar and get drunk and stupid, would obviously not be right.

The arguement about why people shouldn't wear medals and ribbons they didn't earn is as old as reenacting itself, and very tiring.

[Legion Etrangere]

Ok dammit, its time to send an order to Tranchee's. I know you have posted here before about them, but I completely forgot about them!

Looks like an order is about to go out! ;D

[Legion Etrangere]

... at the Saturday ARVN banquet we were invited to, myself and John Dockall (Sgt-chef) wore camou's with airborne wings and jump boots.

This past week, the Viets congratulated our group with several VERY positive comments about the French uniforms and jump wings! I was very suprised as the Viets enjoyed seeing the old 47/51's and 52's and jump wings. I had two vets come up to me and tell me their experiences in Viet jump schools with French instructors!

Cookie ... you make a good point about this as the Viets liked what they saw and enjoyed our participation in uniform with "the baubles and beads."

[cookie]

Exactly, because the people who earned those medals will soon be gone, and who knows of any french/Viet museums to go see this stuff in? Properly researched photoshoots and events get remembered and stay around for a long time. I keep seeing my Dien Bien Phu photos on all kinds of forums. It spreads the word and raises awarness.

[Legion Etrangere]

Several months ago I had dinner with an ARVN Brigadier General (at his request) and an ARVN Colonel who had served with him in the Mekong Delta during the Vietnam War.

The topic of the conversation was a Vietnam War Museum with highlights being ARVN's contribution (as opposed to the U.S. and Soviet backed "puppet" controversies of ARVN's supposed lackluster battle performance) ... and a part of the Museum dedicated to the French Indochina War, hence the reason I was asked to attend.

Your right about people not having a clue about this war. During our dinner, I spoke at length about the war (the BG was born in France, the COL in Saigon) and why the FICW was the key to the Vietnam War, yet its lost to history, except for reenactors, a few websites and gaming clubs. [ Cookie, your DBP photos were sent to him in a later email a week later ].

I have not heard anything back since, but this is where reenacting the FICW is key to keepin the history alive.

I beleive that this conflict is lost to history. Except for the FICW veterans in France (of which there is a small group of surviving Viets), here in Houston and in the U.S. and certainly abroad - thats it. As one ARVN officer explained to me during the veteran's weekend - "once these men are gone, especially the Vietnamese survivors, who will speak for their courage to history?"

[soldatsoucy1]

Hi all: Martini...Cookie....Oggy.....and everyone.

Now that things are quite back to normal and no other family emergencies are looming on the horizon....I promise to be a more familiar face around here on the discussion board.

Ive been following all of the discussions but have been out of pocket for a while.

Many thanks for keeping things going and keeping the FICW forum alive!!!!

After the unbridled success of the debut of the 3e BCCP....I feel that there is no where to go but forward. With the alliance and friendship of individuals such as yourselves, success in our venture is most assured.

John (Soucy) (Champollion) "Doc"

[Legion Etrangere]

This is what we've come up with:

-kepi blanc (scrubbed white)
-French khaki shirt (ironed / starched)
-[ shirt will contain jump wings, ribbons, fouregere ].
-US Army belt
-French / British khaki trousers (ironed / starched)
-jump boots (highly polished)

We want remain as close "to the field" as possible and wish to stay away from the 'full dress' (epaulettes de tradition / cincture).

Mick

[Legion Etrangere]

After the unbridled success of the debut of the 3e BCCP....I feel that there is no where to go but forward. With the alliance and friendship of individuals such as yourselves, success in our venture is most assured.

mon Sgt-chef:

Correct - formez le bataillon!

Our objective is to build on the success of this event for future events.

[legionnaire]

Bonsoir:

Anybody know where I can pick up a French Khaki Shirt for a size 44 chest/38 waist?

What size would that be in the French Size schema?

Merci.

Legionnaire

[wildgoose]

Great Intel here! Our group has some former 82nd and 101st ww2 impressions that were thinking of using the U.S. jump uniforms spiffed up a little as walking out uniforms. And here I went and spent money on a beret! Lol. We have a large Vietnamese communityhere in Sacramento, hopefully we can do something similar to what you are doing in Houston.

[toussant]

Gentlemen,

Is the current kepi blanc the same as Indochina?

[lew]

No. There are some minor differences apparent on close examination. Raymond Guyader's Foreign Legion in Indochina 1946-1956 has an extensive sampling of képis blancs.

[craigtx]

Also the current ones are made blanc instead of the blue and red with the blanc cover.

[toussant]

Thank you! I'll keep my eyes open for the right piece (hard to find with a size 8 head size!) Also, noticed the pictures of the fellows portraying a night on the town in Hanoi. Are their walking out jackets a dark green 'Ike' jacket? If not, what are they wearing? Regards!

[lew]

There were varying levels of non-combat wear, plus the normal variation encountered amongst the different Legion units. I can vaguely recall the picture you are referring to with out digging out my books. The jacket is probably the Mle. 46, which was heavily inspired by the "Ike" jacket. The latter was also sometimes encountered in French service.

Craig's our resident Legion enthusiast. I only dabble with the FFL, since my interest is in the Colonial and Metropolitan airborne. There's a lot of overlap, though.

[toussant]

Thank you for the information! I will continue to dig to find out more- all the posts I've been reading have really proven that the subject really is as muddy as the Mekong! I have to start building a library on the subject to do some cross referencing. Imagine a teacher that doesn't like to do some sound research, heh, heh, heh! Adieu! Toussant

[craigtx]

Toussant,

If you have any specific questions regarding the Legion feel free to message me. Yes, this period for the Legion is eclectic at best. I do Legion impressions from early WW2 through Algerie (Thanks Steve... ).

[lew]

You are both most welcome. A large part of what makes the WW2-1962 time frame so interesting is the immense variation in uniforms and equipment. There's always something new to learn or something that defies what few rules there are.

[dienbienphu]

Hey guys,

I know this is a really old post but I'm putting a 1953-1954, 1st or 2nd BEP impression and I wanted to know what insignia I should equip my TAP 47/52 jumpsuit. Im at a loss for information about ranking procedures; I have seen rank patches placed on the left brest pocket and I have also seen patches on the shoulders. What is the significance of the horizontal gold bars placed over the zipper or center of the chest? What is the significance of shoulder boards, were they used on the TAP 47/52 or were they reserved for more formal wear? Finally, in terms of Kepis, it seems like full white Kepis were not around and covers for the classic red and blue kepis were simply being covered, where can I acquire such a period cover?

If nescasary I can create a new thread but I welcome any information that y'all can throw my way.

Thanks,

Morgan

[craigtx]

Howdy,

For field use, nothing really. Maybe the jump wings and rank pinned to the pocket. For walking out, jump wings, rank, medals etc.

The patches, I'll have to see pictures of. I'll see what I can find amongst my library and see if I can't get an answer. The bars on the center of the chest are officer's bars. One for second Lt., 2 for 1st Lt, and 3 for captain. I can't recall off hand Commandant (Major) through Colonel.

As for the cover for the kepi, I know of no originals available. I had to make my own ( with kind assistance from the missus...) for the Mle 46. There are still original Mle 46s about although these days the sizes are more limited. If you choose to be an ancien, I invested some coin in a Mle 35 from D.F. Smith Historic and he provided a cover. That all bein' said I haven't really seen the 1eme, or 2e BEP wear the kepi blanc in the field. You see the beret, chapeau de brousse in '53 - '54.

Craig

[dienbienphu]

Thanks for the information,

I've got a pretty good idea of what I'll still be needing. As stated by many much wiser before me, the only rule to Indochina is that there are no rules.

Morgan

[craigtx]

Pretty much. The extant photos provide a wealth of information. A lot of it confusing. Seek out photos where you can find them. Also there are a coupla books that you should put in your library as you can find/afford them.

The French Foreign Legion in Indochina, 1946-1956: History • Uniforms • Headgear • Insignia • Weapons • Equipment by Raymond Guyader

Les Paras Français en Indochine: 1945-1954 by Èric Adam

Craig

[Kenneth]

Here is a somewhat helpful cross-reference for French military sizes: www.projet13.com/correspondance-tailles.html.

Like the British, they used different sizing systems over the years. The early systems were just a series of numbers that were not related to the actual size. Later systems were based on actual sizes and expressed in centimeters. There seems to be considerable confusion on that point. For instance, a shirt marked size 42 does not refer to a 42-inch chest but a 42-cm collar, although the actual measurements and fit are sometimes suspect. There is also the question of how something is actually supposed to fit, particularly with airborne combat uniforms. Actual availability of any garment in the desired size is yet another issue and even occurs in "real life" in the army, at least with certain garments. Dress uniforms, other than cotton khaki/khaki drill, are carefully fitted in most armies.

I hope this is of some assistance. Please note also that the average age of a serving soldier (in any army) is probably about 25 and so most surplus garments will seem to be on the small size.

[dienbienphu]

I wouldn't be caught dead without the Foreign Legion in Indochina but the French book sitting at $1,200 on Amazon is just a tad out of my price range.

And, I've really always wondered what those funny numbers meant on the insides of my jackets and trousers, this is resource is certainly helpful.

On a slightly unrelated (to 1st BEP) note I picked up an M1947 jacket a year or two ago with four pockets. The legion book details the version with two interior brest pockets and two exterior waist pockets. The jacket is mint and is dated 1953 but I haven't seen (looked hard enough) these jackets in Indochina.

[craigtx]

It's gone waaaayyyy up since I bought my copy then. I'd recommend checkin' Alibris, or Abe Books to see if they have something more reasonable.

Craig